CCA Advice PRA Wescott/Link and NCO

[Lifeback]

Hello, I've been on a Stepchange DMP since 2011 for debts totalling 23,000 (sorry the pound sign dosent work on my computer) I now have just under 7,000 left to pay. I found out about requesting CCA's and decided to do this at the beginning of Januaary 2020 and see what happened.

Ive had responses from all three debts, from NCO I receieved a letter saying they had submitted my query to Arrow Global, the letter does not mention that the account is unenforceable until I hear, I have heard nothing since.

I also received a letter from Wescot saying the request had been noted and they would be in touch andthey also confirmed my account has been placed on hold while they look into it, I've heard nothing since.

PRA sent me a letter saying the account was on unenforceable while they await further details, they then sent a blurred copy of the original 1998 agreement, you can make out some of my handwriting but none of the print except my address. I wrote back asking for a clearer copy, they responded saying they had asked for a better copy and they would cease all collections on the account while they waited. I then received a second blurred copy in fact the same copy i received earlier so I again wrote back asking for a better copy. They then wrote back saying that MBNA do not have alternative copies on record and that they understand from my original request that I am concerned about the enforceability of the debt ( I did not mention anything of the sort) and that as the documentation I have requested has been supplied including terms and conditions they must advise me that the account remains enforceable.

I have only received a blurred copy of the agreement and a plain paper terms and conditions which has no date apart from MB04/97 on the bottom of each page. What I would really like is for someone to actually look at what I have recieved and tell me what they think, I hope that is ok.

[Timewilltell]

If it illegible then it UE.
money if our more astute members will be along shortly with a link to send it for confirmation
Diana Mayhewnightwatch ? ,

[nightwatch]

As if by magic

Hi Lifeback. welcome to AAD,

someone can indeed look at what you have received, but first could we ask you to give us a little more back ground, by starting a Diary,
just list your debts as follows making a seperate post for each debt,
this helps us keep everything in place, and easier for anyone to see what has been said and maybe they can help further.

• Type of account - Credit card/loan
• Date commenced - when 1st opened
• Approx balance -
• Date last 'full' payment -
• Arrangement -
• Status - defaulted / AP/ not paying
• Account owner -who is chasing for payment.

any CCA documents should be sent to Niddy (site owner) at webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk

please do not blank anything out, only he will see it.if you can put a link to this diary

best wishes NW

[Roger]

Hello, I've been on a Stepchange DMP since 2011 for debts totalling 23,000 (sorry the pound sign dosent work on my computer) I now have just under 7,000 left to pay. I found out about requesting CCA's and decided to do this at the beginning of Januaary 2020 and see what happened.

Ive had responses from all three debts, from NCO I receieved a letter saying they had submitted my query to Arrow Global, the letter does not mention that the account is unenforceable until I hear, I have heard nothing since.

I also received a letter from Wescot saying the request had been noted and they would be in touch andthey also confirmed my account has been placed on hold while they look into it, I've heard nothing since.

PRA sent me a letter saying the account was on unenforceable while they await further details, they then sent a blurred copy of the original 1998 agreement, you can make out some of my handwriting but none of the print except my address. I wrote back asking for a clearer copy, they responded saying they had asked for a better copy and they would cease all collections on the account while they waited. I then received a second blurred copy in fact the same copy i received earlier so I again wrote back asking for a better copy. They then wrote back saying that MBNA do not have alternative copies on record and that they understand from my original request that I am concerned about the enforceability of the debt ( I did not mention anything of the sort) and that as the documentation I have requested has been supplied including terms and conditions they must advise me that the account remains enforceable.

I have only received a blurred copy of the agreement and a plain paper terms and conditions which has no date apart from MB04/97 on the bottom of each page. What I would really like is for someone to actually look at what I have recieved and tell me what they think, I hope that is ok.

Why did you write back to PRA?
Why have you given them the opportunity to correct or otherwise a CCA?

With AAD we are fortunate that Niddy will look at CCA'S received (Un redacted!)
Send a copy of PRA's CCA to #Niddy webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk
My advice is have no further contact with PRA who are known to be litigatious!!

The CCA's plus £1 should be sent to the Debt Owner (sic Arrow Global ) not their Agents.

My thinking now is that you send a SAR (GDPR no charge) to MBNA. To see what data MBNA hold AND whatever correspondence has taken place between MBNA and PRA.

I think that a SAR should also be sent to StepChange (there might be Assignment issues and StepChange should have records of who/whom they have been dealing with) This information might be very pertinent.

Please no further contact by letter or at the phone, email or sms with these DBA's or their Agents! Everything from now on in writing and SILENCE is golden.

[Warwick65]

Hi
I know in the old days we used to send back letters saying this is non compliant or this is illegible but that was then. Now the received wisdom is that we do nothing. the reason is, we don't want to tell them their jobs.


With Arrow, who exactly is the owner of the debt i.e what version of Arrow Global?

It would help if you could set out the debts as NW has suggested

[Lifeback]

Thank you for your responses they are incredibly reassuring. I guess I am old school and probably somewhat niave with regard to replying to PRA, what I wanted was a response from them stating they couldnt find a better copyand that the account would now be unenforceable. It's only now after reading your replies that I realise the games they play and how they were quite possibly dangling a rope for me to hang..

I will sortout the paperwork and write the diary, is it ok to do it on this thread? I'll also send evrything over to Niddy.

Thank you once more.

[Roger]

Thank you for your responses they are incredibly reassuring. I guess I am old school and probably somewhat niave with regard to replying to PRA, what I wanted was a response from them stating they couldnt find a better copyand that the account would now be unenforceable. It's only now after reading your replies that I realise the games they play and how they were quite possibly dangling a rope for me to hang..
I will sortout the paperwork and write the diary, is it ok to do it on this thread? I'll also send evrything over to Niddy.
Thank you once more.

There are many reasons for UE not simply the CCA. The S 77/78 request is a Consumers Right under the Law to a copy of their Agreement with the Debt Owner. You are protected in Law whilst this remains unfulfilled! Hence if they send garbage we do not encourage them to correct their error!

But your Diary here is very important and especially with PRA because your mention the year 2011 (StepChange). You need to fill in the gaps (especially Assignment etc) with your Diary of these Debts including whatever may have happened with StepChange (of which you may or may not have been advised).

My suggestion is sending a SAR to MBNA (since it seems that PRA have completed their correspondence !! at your prompting!) this to get a full picture of what MBNA hold and what PRA may or may not know!

I suggested also a SAR to StepChange so that again any correspondence that they hold is made available to you!

Its really important for your own purposes that you flesh out as far as possible these missing details from 2011 onwards!

Welcome to AAD. I and many here have started off on the wrong footings (in my case elsewhere on the Internet!)
Your Diary will help you gain understanding and control of your Debts

[nightwatch]

Morning, yes please start your diary here.

As has been said above.

some replies to CCA requests, will come up short in some ways,
some have just been T&C, some have been a blank application form, some have just been a pile of statements.

yet the letter that cover's the above replies MAY state that they have complied with your request and would now like a payment. they do this as a CCA request is for information only, so that YOU can see if they can persue the debt. coz they will say they can.

Yes they have complied, in part, we never tell them why they haven't.
Yes they can ask for payment, but if the CCA is faulty, you do not have to pay, nor do you need to tell them why you won't be paying.
you also do not have to fill in the I&E they send you.
we suggest that you keep payment's you would be making to one side as a fighting fund for any that get a bit shirty.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

with regard to replying to PRA, what I wanted was a response from them stating they couldnt find a better copy and that the account would now be unenforceable.

Everyone wants a response like that - but it's unlikely to happen.

PRA issued a claim against me, yet despite telling the court the credit agreements were enforceable, the Judge disagreed so they lost the case.

There's also more to enforceability than just the credit agreement. The debt owner has to prove that all their statutory duties have been complied with, which they failed to do in my case.

Jo explains it here >

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGNMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Di

[Lifeback]

Hello Everybody,
Thanks for your help, this has been much more than I've managed to get elsewhere and I really appreciate the lack of judgement that I've had elsewhere too, I'v never done this before and it wasnt any help just being told where I've gone wrong. I've actually considered giving up and just continuing to pay Stepchange but I've been convinced by a friend that I've come this far mentally as well as actually deciding to be proactive that it would be silly not to continue so I've sent my CCA responses to Niddy and here is my diary so far, hope its OK.

I'm not sure if it''s any use but I applied and started my DMP whilst living in Scotland, my loan was also given to me in Scotland. I now live in England.

[Lifeback]

PRA

Type of Account: MBNA Credit Card
Date Commenced: 1998
Balance: 2800
Date of Last Full Payment: August? 2011
Arrangement: DMP via Stepchange
Status: Just stopped paying this month
Account Owner: PRA

02/01/20 CCA requested
20/01/20 Reply saying they are awaiting further documents and currently deem this debt as unenforceable. (copies of my credit card statements were included with this letter)
21/01/20 Letter received with ilegible copy of CCA plus plain paper copy of terms and conditions. I wrote back asking for a better copy (doh!)
14/02/20 Letter received teling me they have requested the required information and the account is on hold and all further collections activity will cease until further notice
Early march 2020 Second ilegible copy of CCA recieved (identical to first), I wrote back asking for a better copy again (double doh!)
06/03/20 Letter received saying they have requested a copy from MBNA but that MBNA dont have any alternative copies. They go on to say they consider the debt ENFORCEABLE??
25/03/2020 Reply from Niddy saying he would say the CCA agreement is UE as he cannot read it too well, it is iledgible and couldn't be emailed to a solicitor. Advice is to wait and see what they do next.
20/05/2020 Telephone call from PRA while I was away, they left a message to contact them.
10/06/2020 Letter from PRA giving me 30 days to contact them or be considered for litigation. Have forwarded to Niddy.
10/06/2020 Super fast reply from Niddy to say to ignore.
23/07/2020 Letter from PRA advising my account has now been transferred to the Investigations and Litigation department. It says it is a letter before claim and constitutes a formal demand for payment and also to be treated as an invitation to refer to mediation or alternative dispute resolution. Its a bit scary, jumps from veiled threat to we want to help, and have passed on to Niddy to cast his eye over.

[Lifeback]

NCO

Type of Account: Lloyds Credit Card
Date Commenced: Circa 1998
Balance: 2467.18
Date of Last Full Payment: Spring 2011
Arrangement: DMP via Stepchange
Status: Just stopped paying this month
Account Owner: NCO


02/01/20 CCA requested
14/02/20 Letter recieved from NCO "further to your recent CCA request we have submitted your query to Arrow Global who will provide this information as soon as possibe"
21/03/20 Reply from Niddy, he says to ignore until they respond as they are in default so the account is currently UE until they send the paperwork.
20/05/20 Yearly statement sent from Arrow

[Lifeback]

Wescott/Link

Type of Account:Lloyds Loan
Date Commenced: 2007
Balance: 1745.58
Date of Last Full Payment: Spring 2007
Arrangement: DMP via Stepchange
Status: Just stopped paying this month
Account Owner: Link I think, but I did not know this until I applied for the CCA.

I'm not sure if this is applicable but I beleive this loan may have been wrongly approved. I went into the bank to pay something in and came out with a 13,000.00 loan. I had no proper income at the time and the bank man gave it to me to consolidate credit cards and a previous loan. At the time I joked about adding enough to buy a Rolex watch and he asked how much one would cost and added it to the total amount of the loan. Sadly I didnt buy the Rolex but could any of this be of use?

02/01/20 CCA requested to Wescott
/01/20 Letter from Wescott asking me to make the postal order out to Link Finance and confirming the account was now on hold while they look into my request
23/01/20 Letter from Link Finance "apologising for the delay in supplying the requested documents. Unfortunately the original creditor Lloyds Plc has been unable to comply with my request as the vendors documentation has not been received in the 12 working day timescale. Although the account is currently unenforeable until such time the vendor documentation has been received the outstanding balance remains collectable and it is acceptable for creditors to register and continue the reporting of a default. This completes our obligations under Section 78 of the Act"
21/03/20 Reply from Niddy saying this is UE and confirmed so by the creditor, so to stay quiet until the send paperwork
30/03/20 Reply from Link :-( with CCA agreement etc. All is legible but have sent off to Niddy to see what he makes of it.
31/03/20 Reply from the wonderful Niddy, CCA deemed reconstituted so UE!
16/04/20 Notice of Sums in Arrears from Link recieved. Sent off to Niddy who told me to file it away and do nothing.
11/05/20 Letter from Wescott telling me that they haven't received any payments through my DMP have sent to Niddy

[nightwatch]

PRA

Type of Account: MBNA Credit Card
Date Commenced: 1998
Balance: 2800
Date of Last Full Payment: August? 2011
Arrangement: DMP via Stepchange
Status: Just stopped paying this month
Account Owner: PRA

02/01/20 CCA requested
20/01/20 Reply saying they are awaiting further documents and currently deem this debt as unenforceable. (copies of my credit card statements were included with this letter)
21/01/20 Letter received with ilegible copy of CCA plus plain paper copy of terms and conditions. I wrote back asking for a better copy (doh!)
14/02/20 Letter received teling me they have requested the required information and the account is on hold and all further collections activity will cease until further notice
Early march 2020 Second ilegible copy of CCA recieved (identical to first), I wrote back asking for a better copy again (double doh!)
06/03/20 Letter received saying they have requested a copy from MBNA but that MBNA dont have any alternative copies. They go on to say they consider the debt ENFORCEABLE??

as has been said PRA will say it is enforceable, even if they sent you a bag of pork scratchings, see what His Nidship says.

[nightwatch]

NCO

Type of Account: Lloyds Credit Card
Date Commenced: Circa 1998
Balance: 2467.18
Date of Last Full Payment: Spring 2011
Arrangement: DMP via Stepchange
Status: Just stopped paying this month
Account Owner: NCO


02/01/20 CCA requested
14/02/20 Letter recieved from NCO "further to your recent CCA request we have submitted your query to Arrow Global who will provide this information as soon as possibe"

was this always a Lloys or did it start as a TSB debit, morphing to a CC.
or even a Lloyds debit morphing to a CC

a lot started life that way, but you never signed a CC agreement as it started as a chq card, then debit, then CC no paperwork.