Dibs UE Diaries

[daisy]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

SX that's a fair point.

The application form does state that it is a credit card agreement, however, it states that the t&c's are overleaf setting out the agreement with C1, there is nothing printed on the other side.

RW purchased this account in late 2007, have never received a payment and so far other than sending endless template letters that threaten, make offers or state that the agreement is enforceable, they have yet to actually compose and write a letter to me, or indeed start court action, but of course that could still happen, although it makes me wonder why they have not already done so......

[Undercover Elsa]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

Well if they want to play template tennis, I'd send them this next:
Our Templates | Unenforceability Templates | CCA Query - Application Form Received

[daisy]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

I will wait for them to write again and send that template, thank you Elsa x

Have uploaded a copy of t&c's for Niddy to take a look at, so will also need to see what he thinks.

[daisy]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

Citibank

This is an old credit card that defaulted around 2002 with an approximate balance of £2885.
2002 Purchased by Cabot and I made token payment until 2007
August 2007 Last payment made and CCA requested
Loads and loads of letters received, resulting in the the death of a forest!
June 2011 Generic T&C's
Niddy stated that this is UE
September 2011 CPUTR 2008 request sent
November 2011 Reply received that states that they have been unable to obtain a copy of the original signed agreement, however, they claim that a reconstituted agreement is is sufficient to fulfil the requirements of S77/78 of the CCA and is legally enforceable.
November 2012 Letter received and gives me 7 days to make a satisfactory offer of repayment, or they will instruct an external collection agency to collect, or instruct their in-house litigation department, Morgan solicitors to commence legal action. Now demanding almost £7500!
November 2012 Reply sent asking for them to satisfy my S78 request in full and to send me a copy of the original, true copy of the signed agreement.

I sent Cabot a letter stating that I could not understand how you reconstruct something that has never existed and stated very clearly that I have never signed an agreement.

Unusually, I don't have anything for this account, other than correspondence from Cabot.

I have received a letter today from Cabot and the contents are:

"Please note that the information within the reconstituted credit agreement is the information that would have been within the credit agreement you originally signed. This is acceptable in court. We hope this clarifies the matter." Now pay up!

I'm just going round in circles!

[Still Waving]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

I have received a letter today from Cabot and the contents are:

"Please note that the information within the reconstituted credit agreement is the information that would have been within the credit agreement you originally signed. This is acceptable in court. We hope this clarifies the matter." Now pay up!

I'm just going round in circles!

Is this correct, can they just stand up in court and say "would have been" and be accepted?

[daisy]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

That's what they have stated, however, I do find it hard to believe!

[Paul.]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

That's what they have stated, however, I do find it hard to believe!

Yes, however if the debtor makes a positive assertion that he never signed an agreement the position changes.

So if for example you said no i never signed an agreement cos i opened the account over the phone when i called from dubai or whereever, then that would cause the creditor a problem

[Still Waving]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

A reply I had (from a different creditor) to a CCA request said
"For the avoidance of doubt, the signature page provided is a scanned copy
of the signature page of your original agreement only. lncluded on the
reverse was an extract of the terms of your original agreement (including
the prescribed terms) or the full terms of your agreement, which can be
referred to in the reconstituted agreement enclosed. Prior to signature you
were provided with a full copy of the terms of your original agreement to
keep and were sent a further copy of your original agreement with your first
credit card."

So according to them they are covered by belt, braces and a piece of string. However, if they aren't sure what was on the reverse, how can they produce a true copy?

[daisy]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

It's a tricky one, because I know that I haven't signed an agreement, however, I assume I signed an application, they have no documents with my signature, or statements or anything other than a document that they claim is reconstructed, but I have nothing at all for this account other than Cabot demanding money from me and that amount is growing on a daily basis.

I fail to see how they can prove anything, therefore, I need to argue my case sufficiently to stop them taking this to court, but i'm going round in circles!

[ScabHunter]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

That won't be a problem if it continues until September and the Limitation Act comes into play. The only potential problem is if they attempt to litigate in the meantime.

A simple paragraph or two, quoting what they have just written, and also quoting their own letter of November 2011 when they admitted that an original signed agreement didn't exist, should be a good enough reply here.

They are suggesting that you “would have” signed an original agreement, after already admitting that such an agreement did not exist. Just point out the anomaly, and then personally confirm that what they stated in 2011 is true – that you did not sign an agreement.

SH

[daisy]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

SH you are a star Thank you for your help, i'm feeling a little bogged down with them at the moment!

[daisy]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

Having just read Paul's blog twice, does s127(3) come into play with this agreement, as this alleged account was opened prior to 2007 and I know that the agreement has not been signed, certainly by me, they also stated in November 2011 that "They have been unable to obtain a copy of the original signed agreement." My argument being that it never existed, so that's hardly surprising.

Therefore, if they take this to court, can they simply produce a reconstituted document, if I request to see a copy of the original? Or can a judge go with probability as opposed to the certainty of a signed agreement?

[Paul.]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

Having just read Paul's blog twice, does s127(3) come into play with this agreement, as this alleged account was opened prior to 2007 and I know that the agreement has not been signed, certainly by me, they also stated in November 2011 that "They have been unable to obtain a copy of the original signed agreement." My argument being that it never existed, so that's hardly surprising.

Therefore, if they take this to court, can they simply produce a reconstituted document, if I request to see a copy of the original? Or can a judge go with probability as opposed to the certainty of a signed agreement?

This is where the strength of your evidence comes in to play

You would need to make a positive assertion that s61(1)(a) was never complied with and thus the agreement was improperly executed.


The Claimant if you prep the case correctly should not be able to get home with a recon

[daisy]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

Thank you Paul, I appreciate your time.

If they do decide to take this to court, then it will most certainly be heading your professional way, as I would not wish to lose due to my ignorance.

I would naturally prefer to make them consider it a risk not worth taking

[ScabHunter]

Re: Dibs UE Diaries

I know exactly what you mean. I've had to deal with them for the last six years, and even now the alleged debt has gone SB they are still being a nuisance. It took them a week to even acknowledge my latest complaint, and I've heard nothing since. I think it might give them a bit of thinking to do.

I would have thought it should be possible to keep this one out of court. I was going to reply earlier, but pulled out when I saw Paul was browsing the thread. I guessed what he would say, and obviously hearing that from someone who is in the trenches every day is a lot more valuable than hearing it from me. As long as you can make a positive assertion, they would have a serious problem in the court room.

Let us know if you need any help with the exact wording of the letter. This is an important one, because it will let them know exactly what they would risk by starting something.

SH