TenCount's UE sequel

[TenCount]

Thank you

I’ll ask you loads more tomorrow to help you to make a decision on your next steps.

The roof over your head (i.e. those rent arrears) has to be your priority.

Di

Yes, absolutely, but I'm not too worried about that - landlord has been very accommodating (no pun intended) and I can at a push put my hands on the arrears quickly (though I'd have to bring it in from abroad) if I really needed to. It was just that the govt Tenancy Loan Scheme was available to such as me (private tenant in employment with income affected by shielding and/or furlough), and at <1%, so at that rate it seemed a no-brainer to do it. If, after I talk to them next week, the Credit Union feel they can work around the CCJs, I'd still take it.

[Gerry Jemitus]

Talking to the County Court would not trigger anything - they do not communicate such things to the creditor. As you say, your circumstances are that the CCJ's are nearing the 6 year stage, and haven't caused problems to date, so there is little justification for making set-aside applications. Having said that, if the tenancy loan is important and blocked by the CCJ's it might be worth considering.

If you do decide to go down the set-aside route, you do need to act within a reasonable timeframe, weeks rather than months. This is because within the application you have to prove that you have acted promptly on discovery of the judgment, or discovery of the potential to challenge the judgment. The court fee is £255 per CCJ. Legal and/or counsel fees vary widely. If you wish I can explain in detail email or give me a call.

[TenCount]

If you wish I can explain in detail email or give me a call.

Yes please, that would be great. 2 Qs immediately spring to mind:

- if I decide to go for set aside, what is the normal kind of timeframe? Has it been affected by the pandemic delays in the courts?
- is any allowance given by the court for my choosing to ignore my new-found knowledge of the CCJs, given how little time the CCJs have left to run? I mean, if I receive a notice at my current address in, say Oct/Nov/Dec, would set aside then be unavailable to me because I had chosen in May to ignore?

[Gerry Jemitus]

Covid has affected the courts, as you would expect, but most civil litigation cases have still been going ahead. Hearings have been conducted by either telephone conference or video conference. The backlog and hence timescale depends on the area of the country, with some courts busier than others. As a very rough guide, you would probably be looking at 3 - 6 months in total.

Now that lockdown is easing, we may see a return to hearings being carried out face to face in the courtroom. However, as the technology and viability of remote hearings has now been proven, the new normal may be a hybrid of the two, so it will be interesting to see how things develop.

Although not appropriate for all types of hearings, Covid has forced the courts into a way of working that would probably never have seriously considered otherwise, and there are obvious cost and environmental savings as a result. Watch this space.

[Gerry Jemitus]

I have just realised I didn't address your second question. In a set-aside of a default judgment, there are two things that have to be addressed. Firstly why was the original claim not dealt with at the time, and secondly, you have to demonstrate that there is a viable defence to the claim. Ideally, the courts expect a set-aside application to be made within roughly 3 - 4 weeks of the judgment.

If you were not aware of the claim at the time, then you can argue that as soon as you discovered the judgment you took action. You could also argue that it was only some time later that you became aware that there was a process such as set-aside to challenge it, and when you did, you took action. The argument becomes more difficult the longer the delay, but it depends on the circumstances of the case and what evidence you can provide. It is quite common, we have set aside plenty of old judgments, our longest to date being 12 years.

[TenCount]

Covid has affected the courts, as you would expect, but most civil litigation cases have still been going ahead. Hearings have been conducted by either telephone conference or video conference. The backlog and hence timescale depends on the area of the country, with some courts busier than others. As a very rough guide, you would probably be looking at 3 - 6 months in total.

In a set-aside of a default judgment, there are two things that have to be addressed. Firstly why was the original claim not dealt with at the time, and secondly, you have to demonstrate that there is a viable defence to the claim. Ideally, the courts expect a set-aside application to be made within roughly 3 - 4 weeks of the judgment.

If you were not aware of the claim at the time, then you can argue that as soon as you discovered the judgment you took action. You could also argue that it was only some time later that you became aware that there was a process such as set-aside to challenge it, and when you did, you took action. The argument becomes more difficult the longer the delay, but it depends on the circumstances of the case and what evidence you can provide. It is quite common, we have set aside plenty of old judgments, our longest to date being 12 years.

Hmmm, if I'm looking at 3 - 6 months in total to set aside the CCJ, I think that probably decides it for me in this case, because that would be too long to meaningfully impact my (pending) Tenancy Loan Saver application with my Credit Union, which is at it stands is the only compelling reason for me address the CCJ anyway, and also butts right up against the CCJ 6 year period "expiry".

One other Q: "as soon as you discovered the judgment" and "that you became aware that there was a process such as set-aside to challenge it" - is there some objective test the court uses for this? Does the court require that I am made aware of this in a certain way, e.g. a letter sent to my current address, or is the happenstance of my discovering it just yesterday because the Credit Union told me there were "CCJ issues" on my credit file considered notice enough? I guess what I'm really asking is, if a letter from the creditor arrives at my current address any time in the next 9 months, i.e. before the CCJ 6 year period expires, can I plausibly claim prior ignorance of the CCJ at that point and then challenge it with set aside?

[Gerry Jemitus]

Yes, I agree, in this instance the case for setting-aside is not compelling. Although the CCJ comes off your credit file after 6 years, it does not expire, and can still be enforced (but requires the permission of the court).

Regarding your other question 'can I plausibly claim prior ignorance of the CCJ at that point and then challenge it with set aside?' - absolutely not, that would be misleading the court. Any set-aside application is judged on it's merits. It has to argue your position, provide evidence to support your application and must be truthful.

[TenCount]

Yes, I agree, in this instance the case for setting-aside is not compelling. Although the CCJ comes off your credit file after 6 years, it does not expire, and can still be enforced (but requires the permission of the court).

Regarding your other question 'can I plausibly claim prior ignorance of the CCJ at that point and then challenge it with set aside?' - absolutely not, that would be misleading the court. Any set-aside application is judged on it's merits. It has to argue your position, provide evidence to support your application and must be truthful.

Ok, now I'm *really* torn - I'm strongly tempted to just forget about this and let the 9 months pass, but on the other hand I wouldn't want the only real possibility of having the judgement set aside to be extinguished because I don't act now.

Also: is it a known phenomenon that CCJ creditors push harder to locate/enforce, etc, as the 6 year period is drawing to a close? Thus far they seem to have been very laissez-faire about it all...

[Gerry Jemitus]

Creditors often issue claims just prior to limitation, in order to keep the debt active. If they miss the deadline, they cannot issue. However, I wouldn't say the same applies to a CCJ approaching 6 years, as they can still enforce albeit only with court permission. This doesn't mean they will do, just that they have the option.

[TenCount]

Creditors often issue claims just prior to limitation, in order to keep the debt active. If they miss the deadline, they cannot issue. However, I wouldn't say the same applies to a CCJ approaching 6 years, as they can still enforce albeit only with court permission. This doesn't mean they will do, just that they have the option.

So it sounds like there's no rational reason to expect more/better enforcement action from them at this late stage than there has been thus far, which is some comfort.

In reality, the post 6 years "enforcement only with court permission" route - just how rare would that be? Is it amount-dependant or strength-of-case dependant? It seems like quite a risk to take for a decade-old consumer credit debt...

[PlanB]

Good questions!

I'm self-employed, so I guess the work/career thing is not relevant to me.

I don't plan on getting a mortgage anytime soon, no.

Staying in the UK for at least one or two more years, maybe a bit longer.

I applied to the Credit Union for a govt-backed Tenancy Saver Loan . . . it would be a neat and cheap solution for some rent arrears I have (relatively cordially) built up over the last 12 months. . . . I'm meeting the Credit Union lending person next week to talk through the CCJ thing and see if there is a way around it for them. Thus I don't know yet if it is a dealbreaker

If you're self employed the Judgment Creditor wouldn't be able to enforce the CCJ with an 'Attachment of Earning's Order since you have no employer to attach it to.

You rent your home so the Judgment Creditor can't get a Charging Order on any property you own, unless or until that situation changes (i.e. you buy a property).

Your Landlord may be "cordial" at the moment perhaps because he has no option since there have been rules in place protecting tenants with rent arrears from eviction during the pandemic, although these aren't guaranteed to be in place forever.

The roof over your head is priority so see what the Credit Union lending person has to say next week when you talk as agreed.

Di

[PlanB]

When I moved abroad in 2012, I sent each of my then creditors a physical letter telling them that I would be abroad for some years and likely moving from country to country (which is indeed what happened), and that if they wanted to contact me, my email was definitely the most reliable method to do so. I believe I also included some sweet talk about "even though I'm satisfied that the debt in question is UE/I've made every reasonable effort to reach a settlement on that basis/I'm not running away".

My guess is the reason that they have not attempted to enforce the CCJs is because you say you made it clear to them in writing that you were moving "abroad for some years".

They may have taken the view that if you were living abroad they could have jurisdiction issues if they tried enforcement action in a UK court. Although that didn't stop them from getting a CCJ (Default Judgment) behind your back!

However, I've come across a blog post about a Judgment Creditor who was granted permission to enforce a CCJ after over 11 years because the Judge accepted the 'delay' and/or non-action was because the Defendant/debtor was abroad (they waited until he had returned). However they weren't allowed to add interest from the date of the CCJ.

You can read about this here > https://www.kjplaw.co.uk/limitation-...%20years%20old.


Hopefully that was a rare situation, but contacting the Judgment Creditor might draw attention to your return to Blighty which is why I asked if you were on the Electoral Roll etc. You say you're visible on CRA files but they've not had a reason to check those (yet).

Di

[TenCount]

My guess is the reason that they have not attempted to enforce the CCJs is because you say you made it clear to them in writing that you were moving "abroad for some years".

They may have taken the view that if you were living abroad they could have jurisdiction issues if they tried enforcement action in a UK court. Although that didn't stop them from getting a CCJ (Default Judgment) behind your back!

However, I've come across a blog post about a Judgment Creditor who was granted permission to enforce a CCJ after over 11 years because the Judge accepted the 'delay' and/or non-action was because the Defendant/debtor was abroad (they waited until he had returned). However they weren't allowed to add interest from the date of the CCJ.

You can read about this here > https://www.kjplaw.co.uk/limitation-...%20years%20old.


Hopefully that was a rare situation, but contacting the Judgment Creditor might draw attention to your return to Blighty which is why I asked if you were on the Electoral Roll etc. You say you're visible on CRA files but they've not had a reason to check those (yet).

Di

Thanks - that's v interesting. I suppose it has never been argued in court in a previous case, but I imagine the fact that I gave them my email address when I left in 2012, expressly for the purpose of contacting me when I was moving around, and for whatever reason they chose not to use it (yet still went for the Default Judgment "behind my back", as you put it, in 2016) wouldn't help their case to seek enforcement after the 6 years.

No, I'm not currently on the electoral roll. (I was, when I first came back to the UK in 2018, but at another address and only for 9 months or so - my recent credit check tells me that I've since been removed from the roll at that address.)

[TenCount]

Hi all - I just wanted to (hopefully) draw a line under this.

Fortunately I was able to get my Tenancy Saver Loan - it took almost 2 months to arrange, but it was very helpful indeed. My previously amicable letting agent/landlord did (as someone here predicted) lose patience as the time dragged on and, worse, did instruct a solicitor to begin possession proceedings. But now all arrears have been paid the landlord has agreed to withdrawn the case, so I did manage to "keep a roof over my head", as someone put it earlier in the thread.

I have heard nothing else regarding the crazy CCJs from 2016, so with a tiny bit of luck time will run out on those very shortly.

[The Tech Clerk]

CCJs do not run out unless settled. BUT longer they run the better as after a long time questions could be asked of claimants as to why no action after such a time, end result variable? sure other will respond as well!