TenCount's UE sequel

[TenCount]

Hi all

I'm here today because - to my great surprise (or not!) - it seems 2 of my ancient UE adversaries have somehow revived their interest in me. Brief backstory:

- in 2010, a personal life crisis suddenly meant no income and a difficult decision on what to do with my then CC debts;
- stumbled across the old (pre AAD) forum and was helped there to go down the UE route;
- 2010 & 2011 were hard, battling the endless letters/threats, but the forum made it sooooooo much easier;
- in 2012 I moved abroad (I notified my then creditors of this) and was away until 2018, when I moved back to the UK permanently;
- During that time, I never heard from my creditors, other than the odd form letter which would find me abroad or at my UK Royal Mail fwding address, which I ignored;
- whilst I was away, the UE thing seemed to slowly work it's way through the 6 years and die off.

Cut to today. I've recently joined a local credit union and, during a first credit check for 10 years (my, how the credit check business has come on in 10 years!) I discover that there are 2 outstanding CCJs against me, one for £20K and one for £10K, from companies I've never heard of (I assume they are DC carousel companies). I have no idea who the original creditors for these were, but as we ascertained comprehensively in 2010 that all of my then credit agreements were UE, it is a fair bet that the original credit agreements behind these CCJs are UE. I'm still trying to gather all the data, so I don't know if these are pinned to my current address or a previous address, but either way the CCJs are there on my file.

Anyhow, it seems that these CCJS were first created in in January 2015, i.e. toward the end of the 6 year expiration of the UE debts, and that, worse, they were "renewed" in January 2021. As I say, I have *never* received any communication about these CCJ actions. If they hadn't renewed this January, I guess there is a good chance I would never have heard of them, but now that they have I feel I have to do something - I don't want them to think they can keep renewing this forever.

So.

I'm assuming the best thing to do discover all the details and apply to the court for a set aside, but I'm really interested to know if anyone here has other opinions - e.g. is it even worth me trying to make the companies aware that these debts were always UE? Will applying for set aside stir these companies into bailiff action, etc?

Thanks in advance.

[Colin G Quinn]

Hi TenCount,

If you were to contact the companies and assert the alleged agreements were/are unenforceable, you will likely receive a generic response stating they don't need to prove otherwise as the Court has entered Judgment.

Furthermore, it may promt them to 'search' for documentation in anticipation of you making an application to set aside.

Can I ask the names of the companies who have Judgment against you?

On your credit file, you should see the Claim numbers that relate to the Judgments.

If you have those you can contact the County Court Business Centre on 0300 123 1056. The advisor will ask for the Claim number and will likely ask for your name and address, or previous address if your current one doesn't match their record.

When you have confirmed that information you can ask;

1. When the Claim was issued;
2. What date Judgment was entered;
3. Where the Claim was issued to; and
4. Your can ask the advisor to email you details of the original Particulars of Claim.

That should give you an indication of what you have been sued for in the first instance.

[TenCount]

Hey, thanks so much, that's all good to know. I'll try and gather all that data up today.

[Colin G Quinn]

When you call the Court and to save you time, its option 4 to speak to an advisor which you can do straight away.

I've just tested the line for you and there are currently 58 people in the queue and an estimated wait time of 29 minutes to speak to someone.

[Colin G Quinn]

Hi again,

Just one thing. What exactly do you mean when you say the CCJ's were 'renewed' in January 2021?

[TenCount]

Hi again,

Just one thing. What exactly do you mean when you say the CCJ's were 'renewed' in January 2021?

Yep, I'm a bit mystified by that - it was a phrase the person at the Credit Union used. Is a "renewal" even possible? I'm looking at my credit file right now (from checkmyfile) and it shows 2 CCJs from 2016, both scheduled to be "Removed" in March 2022. So maybe just a misunderstanding there.

[PlanB]

I discover that there are 2 outstanding CCJs against me, one for £20K and one for £10K, from companies I've never heard of . . . but as we ascertained comprehensively in 2010 that all of my then credit agreements were UE, it is a fair bet that the original credit agreements behind these CCJs are UE. I'm still trying to gather all the data, so I don't know if these are pinned to my current address or a previous address, but either way the CCJs are there on my file.

. . . it seems that these CCJS were first created in in January 2015, i.e. toward the end of the 6 year expiration of the UE debts, and that, worse, they were "renewed" in January 2021. As I say, I have *never* received any communication about these CCJ actions. If they hadn't renewed this January, I guess there is a good chance I would never have heard of them, but now that they have I feel I have to do something - I don't want them to think they can keep renewing this forever.

I'm assuming the best thing to do discover all the details and apply to the court for a set aside, but I'm really interested to know if anyone here has other opinions - e.g. is it even worth me trying to make the companies aware that these debts were always UE? Will applying for set aside stir these companies into bailiff action, etc?

Hello

I agree with Colin that if you approach the Judgment Creditor (Claimant/debt owner) direct they might start to gather or 'reconstitute' documentation in anticipation of any set aside application.

This is the time to do discrete research.

However once you know who they are the court would expect you to act promptly.

Since these CCJs were in 2015 and were not small sums, there's a possibility that they may have attempted enforcement while you were abroad.

Do/did you own a property in the UK and have you checked Land Registry to see whether they have already successfully obtained a Final Charging Order on it? I'm not saying this to alarm you, it's just you need to know so you may be able to deal with the potential removal of any CO at the same time as a set-aside of the CCJ.

You say these CCJs were discovered by a search on your CRA file, so was that a search at a previous address linked to your current address, or at your current address only?

I'm not sure what you mean by CCJ being "renewed" in January 2021. Once a CCJ has been awarded it doesn't get "renewed" but enforcement action can be taken.

If any enforcement action has been attempted the case would have been transferred to another court for action. When you get through to NCCBC on the phone make sure you ask them for any updates on the case since the Default Judgment, and to tell you which court the case was transferred to so you can contact them for information on what then happened.

Once you get what's needed post on your thread and I'll tag Colin G Quinn so he's alerted to the update.

Di

[TenCount]

Do/did you own a property in the UK and have you checked Land Registry to see whether they have already successfully obtained a Final Charging Order on it? I'm not saying this to alarm you, it's just you need to know so you may be able to deal with the potential removal of any CO at the same time as a set-aside of the CCJ.

You say these CCJs were discovered by a search on your CRA file, so was that a search at a previous address linked to your current address, or at your current address only?

I'm not sure what you mean by CCJ being "renewed" in January 2021. Once a CCJ has been awarded it doesn't get "renewed" but enforcement action can be taken.

If any enforcement action has been attempted the case would have been transferred to another court for action. When you get through to NCCBC on the phone make sure you ask them for any updates on the case since the Default Judgment, and to tell you which court the case was transferred to so you can contact them for information on what then happened.

Once you get what's needed post on your thread and I'll tag Colin G Quinn so he's alerted to the update.

Di

Hi Di

No, I didn't (and don't) own property in the UK.

I'm looking at the credit file I've just downloaded from checkmyfile and it says the address used for the CCJs was actually the address I'd set up as a forwarding address for a year or so (through the Royal Mail service) when I left the UK in 2012. It is actually my (elderly, now) Mum's address in Wales, and certainly no-one has ever visited her for any "enforcement" action. And as far as I'm aware no post addressed to me has been delivered there for years now. Mysterious!

[PlanB]

in 2012 I moved abroad (I notified my then creditors of this) and was away until 2018, when I moved back to the UK permanently;
- During that time, I never heard from my creditors, other than the odd form letter which would find me abroad or at my UK Royal Mail fwding address

First of all they can't seek enforcement against your Mum's house because they're not her CCJs.

When you notified your creditors that you'd moved abroad, how and what did you tell them?

Was it a "Goodbye" email or were you more specific so there can be no doubt that you weren't going to be living anywhere in the UK for the foreseeable future?

The annoying thing about the Royal Mail redirection Ts & Cs is somewhere in the small print you agree to let them share your information. When you move you often get loads of marketing stuff welcoming to your new home etc.

It can be the same with DVLA if you have or had a driving licence in the UK etc.

Do you have any assets in the UK even though you don't own a property?

Di

[TenCount]

When you notified your creditors that you'd moved abroad, how and what did you tell them?

Was it a "Goodbye" email or were you more specific so there can be no doubt that you weren't going to be living anywhere in the UK for the foreseeable future?

The annoying thing about the Royal Mail redirection Ts & Cs is somewhere in the small print you agree to let them share your information. When you move you often get loads of marketing stuff welcoming to your new home etc.

It can be the same with DVLA if you have or had a driving licence in the UK etc.

Do you have any assets in the UK even though you don't own a property?

Di

When I moved abroad in 2012, I sent each of my then creditors a physical letter telling them that I would be abroad for some years and likely moving from country to country (which is indeed what happened), and that if they wanted to contact me, my email was definitely the most reliable method to do so. I believe I also included some sweet talk about "even though I'm satisfied that the debt in question is UE/I've made every reasonable effort to reach a settlement on that basis/I'm not running away", etc, etc. (I probably have a copy of it on an old backup drive here somewhere.)

Yep, the Royal Mail redirection was a bit of a marketing magnet! For a while afterward I periodically received a few robo threat type letters, but nothing much.

I did retain my DVLA licence - when I was abroad it was registered to my Mum's address - but it has been registered to my own address now for at least a couple of years.

No, no assets in the UK other than a fairly crappy old car and the contents of my (rented) home.

Re: your idea of discreet enquiries. I'm all for that, of course, but it seems like everything leaves a footprint now! TBH, I'm a bit torn about following this up at all now or else just waiting out the 10 months until the CCJ expires, because when I first posted today I'd imagined they'd somehow put another 6 years on the term, and I couldn't live with that. I'm not planning on moving in the next year or else applying for credit, etc, and the last thing I'd want is to contact the court and have that light a flame under the creditors to vigorously pursue the CCJ before time runs out, so...

[PlanB]

I did retain my DVLA licence - when I was abroad it was registered to my Mum's address - but it has been registered to my own address now for at least a couple of years.

No, no assets in the UK other than a fairly crappy old car and the contents of my (rented) home.

Re: your idea of discreet enquiries. I'm all for that, of course, but it seems like everything leaves a footprint now! TBH, I'm a bit torn about following this up at all now or else just waiting out the 10 months until the CCJ expires, because when I first posted today I'd imagined they'd somehow put another 6 years on the term, and I couldn't live with that. I'm not planning on moving in the next year or else applying for credit, etc, and the last thing I'd want is to contact the court and have that light a flame under the creditors to vigorously pursue the CCJ before time runs out, so...

Well it seems I may have been right when I pointed the finger of blame at the DVLA!

Are you on the Electoral Roll where you now live, and when you looked at CheckMyFile are you showing as linked to your Mum's address or any other addresses so your current whereabouts can be easily established? As you say everything you do these days leaves a footprint somewhere so it's not hard to be traced.

A CCJ never runs out or expires, but after six years the Judgment Creditor may need to convince the court that they have a jolly good reason for not attempting to enforce it sooner?

You must decide what works best for you, so see what anyone else on this forum thinks before making up your mind what to do. I see no harm in you sleeping on it overnight before taking action (or not).

Di

[TenCount]

Well it seems I may have been right when I pointed the finger of blame at the DVLA!

Are you on the Electoral Roll where you now live, and when you looked at CheckMyFile are you showing as linked to your Mum's address or any other addresses so your current whereabouts can be easily established?

Di

Yep, I am on the electoral roll - have been since coming back to the UK in 2018. I've also been with the same bank (Nationwide) since 2010, and the address they have for me is my current address. So I don't think I'd be that hard to find - I mean, with a few clicks checkmyfile provided me with a 30 page pdf history on me this morning, going all the way back to my address in 1999, so it can't be that difficult. I do have a "John Smith" kind of name, so I suppose there's a chance they've contacted everyone in the country with my name or similar, but somehow overlooked me. No doubt the original creditor sold the debt on for 1% or something as part of a job lot, and the subsequent owner(s) have made zero investigation into what the debt actually was or how it came about, and has probably been equally sloppy with the post CCJ work.

So.

If the CCJ was fresh, I'd go all guns to have it set aside, and it seems I'd have a reasonable case for doing so, given that [1] the original debt is based on a UE agreement, [2] the original creditor ignored my (reasonable?) request to maintain contact by email as I travelled, and [3] the current ticket holder seems to have made little or no effort to get in touch with me/enforce. Even though it would cost me some £s for counsel and with no guarantee of success, it would be worth it to get it out of my hair.

But, but, but ... I've lived in complete ignorance of this for over 5 years and it hasn't done me the slightest harm, so hanging on for 9 more months seems almost prudent in this case. I know the debt technically still exists after the 6 years of the CCJ has expired, but if it's off my credit file then that's 99.99% of the problem gone. The 0.01% chance of the ticket holder at that point organising themselves sufficiently to convince the court they need another chance to take on my (not very promising for them) case seems pretty unlikely, so ...

[PlanB]

If the CCJ was fresh, I'd go all guns to have it set aside

But, but, but ... I've lived in complete ignorance of this for over 5 years and it hasn't done me the slightest harm, so hanging on for 9 more months seems almost prudent in this case. I know the debt technically still exists after the 6 years of the CCJ has expired, but if it's off my credit file then that's 99.99% of the problem gone.

I can see you're sensibly weighing up your options and the reasons for-and-against them.

It seems you're leaning towards a 'let sleeping dogs lie approach' because it's worked fine for over five years, and your priority is to have a clean credit file without the expense of legal proceedings.

Other things to consider would be your personal circumstances such as whether having a 'live' CCJ could effect your work/career prospects in which case it might be a wise investment to get shot of them if (if if if) you would have good prospects of defending the claim once the CCJs were set aside.

Or whether you would have to declare the CCJs in any future mortgage application which typically asks "have you ever been bankrupt" but not "have you ever had a CCJ" - usually only a CCJ in the last three years would count, or at worst the previous six years.

Are you planning to stay in the UK or will returning overseas be on the cards at some point?

Has this had any impact, good or bad, on whatever you were trying to achieve with the credit union which flagged this up in the first place?

Di

[TenCount]

I can see you're sensibly weighing up your options and the reasons for-and-against them.

It seems you're leaning towards a 'let sleeping dogs lie approach' because it's worked fine for over five years, and your priority is to have a clean credit file without the expense of legal proceedings.

Other things to consider would be your personal circumstances such as whether having a 'live' CCJ could effect your work/career prospects in which case it might be a wise investment to get shot of them if (if if if) you would have good prospects of defending the claim once the CCJs were set aside.

Or whether you would have to declare the CCJs in any future mortgage application which typically asks "have you ever been bankrupt" but not "have you ever had a CCJ" - usually only a CCJ in the last three years would count, or at worst the previous six years.

Are you planning to stay in the UK or will returning overseas be on the cards at some point?

Has this had any impact, good or bad, on whatever you were trying to achieve with the credit union which flagged this up in the first place?

Di

Good questions!

I'm self-employed, so I guess the work/career thing is not relevant to me. (Would it even be, though? Do potential employers routinely do credit checks now for non-security sensitive jobs? If so, I'm feeling old and out of touch...)

I don't plan on getting a mortgage anytime soon, no.

Staying in the UK for at least one or two more years, maybe a bit longer.

I applied to the Credit Union for a govt-backed Tenancy Saver Loan (my income has been all over the place since lockdown 1 - I've been shielding and furloughing) - it would be a neat and cheap solution for some rent arrears I have (relatively cordially) built up over the last 12 months. So it is a bit of a nuisance, but I'm meeting the Credit Union lending person next week to talk through the CCJ thing and see if there is a way around it for them. Thus I don't know yet if it is a dealbreaker for them, but either way [1] I can live without the Tenancy Saver Loan if need be and come to some other arrangement with my (relatively cordial) landlord, and [2] if I need to spend considerable time and £s on getting the CCJ set aside or else agreeing a plan with the CCJ creditor in order to then secure the Tenancy Saver Loan, then I think I'd rather not bother.

One other Q springs to mind: would my talking to the County Court Business Centre about these CCJs likely alert the creditors that I am around or else spur them into action against me? Does the County Court Business Centre communicate (even unintentionally) to the creditor that I have been in touch with the court? I ask the question because if I do decide to "let sleeping dogs lie", I probably shouldn't talk to anyone about any of this, I imagine.

On the other hand, if I do decide to go the other way - is there any kind of widely-acknowledged ballpark £ total for hiring counsel to have these CCJs set aside?

Thanks as ever

[PlanB]

Good questions!.

Thank you

I’ll ask you loads more tomorrow to help you to make a decision on your next steps.

The roof over your head (i.e. those rent arrears) has to be your priority.

Di