Night Monkey's diary

[Night Monkey]

If the account wasn't defaulted until 2018 is it showing on your current CRA file?

I'll check that and get back to you...

I can't see when this debt was assigned to PRA by MBNA which may be relevant, so when was that?

I have a default notice dated 4.9.18 - I've located some additional correspondence and added that to the original diary in red.

Why don't you send a Subject Access Request to MBNA so you've got all the data they hold on your old account.

I will do just that and update as & when.

Thanks.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Type of account - MBNA credit card
Date commenced - Approx 2012
Approx balance - £9325
Date last paid - Early 2018
Are you on arrangement or not paying - DMP with StepChange
Status - default
Account owner - PRA Group (UK) Ltd.

17.8.19 Requested CCA details
22.8.19 Received letter returning £1 postal order 'as a gesture of goodwill'
Say they have requested the required information and placed account on hold (therefore ceasing collections)
Enclosed CCA consumer factsheet
11.9.19 - Received letter from PRA enclosing generic terms and conditions and a statement dated 10.11.18 giving a balance of £9861.43 and an equal charge-off adjustment totaling £0.00, together with the previous statement showing a credit of £76.54 - presumably the last one I made. Also shows arrears of £1244.92.
More interestingly the letter states that pending receipt of further documents the debt is currently deemed unenforceable (!) which means they are unable to take court action against us, etc. It points out that the debt has not been written off and they are free to contact us, pass on our details to a third party and continue to report the account with credit reference bureaux.
9.11.19 Received letter from PRA group stating current balance is £8937.58 and enclosing 'copy documents as requested'. This consists of a readable 'Pre-contractual Explanation Sheet' and two pages of very small type which is apparently pre-contractual credit information (about four pages shrunk to one sheet) and a credit card agreement, just about readable but including some personal details. Sent to Niddy for an opinion.
18.11.19 Deemed enforceable. Boo.
@Di - Can you advise regarding the validity of the default notice? Unlikely that there's an issue, but you never know.
12.12.19 Received statement of account from PRA, showing a current balance of £8859.25.

I've just seen your update on this ex-MBNA debt and I have a few questions

If the account wasn't defaulted until 2018 is it showing on your current CRA file?

I can't see when this debt was assigned to PRA by MBNA which may be relevant, so when was that?

Why don't you send a Subject Access Request to MBNA so you've got all the data they hold on your old account. This should also include any interaction between PRA and MBNA noted in the Transaction Log, which can be illuminating.

There's more to enforceability of a debt than just the credit agreement.

Di

[Warwick65]

Just to add- everyone’s situation is different, I rented and had no assets but for me, the option of paying nominal payments for ever and still possibly getting a claim was just too much to bear. Also all my debts were older although a few were 2010-2012 and they are long since statute barred.

[Warwick65]

Just remember there is an awful lot more to enforceability than just the agreement itself , granted that is the easiest but there are also things like assignment, default notices and lots of things, the technicalities of, I do not understand.

Pulling away from step change will necessitate some pain on your part, you will get letters and phone calls, phone calls can easily be stopped. If I can do it with 5 times the creditors you seem to have I would say most people can- I was not in a good place then either but support from others such as Di got me through.

[Night Monkey]

At some point I'm going to pull away from StepChange to 'self-manage', and take it from there - if I stop paying creditors should I tell them beforehand, or just pull the plug and respond as appropriate?

[Night Monkey]

What was Niddy's opinion on the credit agreement which they sent you on 9th November?

Niddy says enforceable, unfortunately. PRA have recently sent a statement of account, I'm about to update the main blogpost.

Thanks.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Looks like they've got their act together on this one...

Have you heard anything further from PRA?

What was Niddy's opinion on the credit agreement which they sent you on 9th November?

Di

[Warwick65]

I have a letter from MBNA dated 3rd January 2018 stating that they have decided to sell the debt to PRA Group (UK) Ltd., transferring ownership & rights to collect etc.



Assigned directly, I believe.



Default notice dated 4th September 2018.

Looks like they've got their act together on this one...

Not necessarily - depends on the state and form of the default notice for a start - Maybe it depends on the terms of the assignment but they are difficult to get hold of- I remember seeing one that said after a year the OC would not help in retrieval of documents (but that was a different firm and many years ago).

[Night Monkey]

When was this debt assigned from MBNA to PRA?

I have a letter from MBNA dated 3rd January 2018 stating that they have decided to sell the debt to PRA Group (UK) Ltd., transferring ownership & rights to collect etc.

And was it assigned direct to PRA or could it have been assigned to Aktiv Kapital before they assigned it to PRA?

Assigned directly, I believe.

Do you recall getting a Default Notice from MBNA before they terminated the account?

Default notice dated 4th September 2018.

Looks like they've got their act together on this one...

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Type of account - MBNA credit card
Date commenced - Approx 2012
Approx balance - £9325
Date last paid - Early 2018
Are you on arrangement or not paying - DMP with StepChange
Status - default
Account owner - PRA Group (UK) Ltd.

17.8.19 Requested CCA details
22.8.19 Received letter returning £1 postal order 'as a gesture of goodwill'
Say they have requested the required information and placed account on hold (therefore ceasing collections)
Enclosed CCA consumer factsheet
11.9.19 - Received letter from PRA enclosing generic terms and conditions and a statement dated 10.11.18 giving a balance of £9861.43 and an equal charge-off adjustment totaling £0.00, together with the previous statement showing a credit of £76.54 - presumably the last one I made. Also shows arrears of £1244.92.
More interestingly the letter states that pending receipt of further documents the debt is currently deemed unenforceable (!) which means they are unable to take court action against us, etc. It points out that the debt has not been written off and they are free to contact us, pass on our details to a third party and continue to report the account with credit reference bureaux.
9.11.19 Received letter from PRA group stating current balance is £8937.58 and enclosing 'copy documents as requested'. This consists of a readable 'Pre-contractual Explanation Sheet' and two pages of very small type which is apparently pre-contractual credit information (about four pages shrunk to one sheet) and a credit card agreement, just about readable but including some personal details. Set to Niddy for an opinion.

I'm quoting your earlier post so members can see the history.

When was this debt assigned from MBNA to PRA?

And was it assigned direct to PRA or could it have been assigned to Aktiv Kapital before they assigned it to PRA?

Do you recall getting a Default Notice from MBNA before they terminated the account?

The credit agreement isn't the only thing which can make a debt unenforceable - the debt owner has to get all their statutory obligations right, which they failed to do in the case of PRA v Diana Mayhew (me )

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Di

[nightwatch]

yes please, if poss put a link to this diary aswell, no need to cross anything out, only nidd sees it

[Night Monkey]

I've received a letter from PRA group stating that the current balance is £8937.58 and enclosing 'copy documents as requested'. This consists of a readable 'Pre-contractual Explanation Sheet' and two pages of very small type which is apparently pre-contractual credit information (about four pages shrunk to one sheet) and a credit card agreement, just about readable but including some personal details. Do I scan this as best I can and send to Niddy for an opinion?

[Spud]

Sometimes you wont get a reply, Sometimes you do and often times it can be months down the line etc. As long as you have sent the CCA request, With the £1 payment and ideally have sent it recorded delivery ( so you have proof it got there) then it doesn't matter really whether they reply of not, You are afforded the protections under the Consumer Credit Act in respect of S78 requests.

Its obviously helpful if they reply to your CCA request with a load of garbage as it is quite easy to judge your position. If the reply back is unenforceable, and if you wish to follow the UE route - You would need to stop paying and keep any creditors at bay for 6 years ( 5 in Scotland) until the debt becomes Statute Barred. ( I am sure you already know some of that )

If you get no reply to your CCA request, Then the debt is Unenforceable until such times they can correctly comply with your request. Sometimes they can, sometimes they cannot - This is where it gets a bit more complicated and you have to decide whether to stop payments and see how it proceeds or continue paying.

It can feel against the grain etc but its the only way to use the UE route. Anybody who has been through it, Has been in the very same position. I remember when I first stopped payments for the first time, It was a slightly scary time and required a leap of faith - I took it, 6 years down the line here I am with all debts Statute barred - A bit of fun and games along the way - But around £70K of debt gone. It was crippling me and made me feel terrible. Those 6 years have absolutely flown by honestly

You must remember, For every month you make a payment, That's another month off being Statute Barred - Each payment is technically acknowledging the debt ( As you say) but don't worry about that point too much. The road to a debt being Statute Barred will only start when payment stops

I appreciate you may be thinking of making offers to settle when you get some funds etc - But answer me this, Why would you want to make offers on a debt when it may well be unenforceable? If it is Unenforceable then you wont be paying anything and can have a nice Holiday instead

See how you go first - Keep that money safe as a backup plan

[Night Monkey]

Are there any updates on any of your debts before I make my suggestions?

Hi

No major updates, in brief we have five debts. I've requested five CCAs, received none, have one confirmation of non-enforceability from PRA (which may cover two of them) and a 'thank you' from Wescot, a letter returned without comment regarding an HSBC credit card and no response regarding an HSBC overdraft.

I'm expecting some compensation early next year (Easter?) and am minded to let things lie until I can make offers and hopefully make it all go away. I'm just concerned that me continuing to pay muddies the water somehow, in an acknowledging-the-debt kind of way?

Cheers, and thanks for your time.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

So far I've requested three CCAs, received none and have one confirmation of non-enforceability from PRA. I need to request one from HSBC and also send something to HSBC regarding an overdraft - can anyone tell me what?

While I confirm the legal situation with each debt I'm minded to let the payments continue via StepChange until the pending compensation is settled, at which point I'll go for a full & final settlement where possible; if this continues much beyond Christmas I may reassess. I'm not sure that I want to rattle any cages just yet.

Hello

I see you've asked a question on another thread here >

Can anyone say if this a bad idea for any reason beyond being more expensive in the long run? I'm in a similar situation, still paying acknowledged UE debts via StepChange until I have funding to make some F&F settlement offers - like you I'm reluctant to 'light the blue touchpaper' until I'm in a position to respond with more than 'go away'.

Every situation is different so I thought it best to answer your question on your own thread.

Are there any updates on any of your debts before I make my suggestions?

Di