Lola girl UE diary...newbie!

[PlanB]

Hi Di - hope you are well.

I guess I just need to sit back and wait, see what they do next. As this is my only possibly enforceable one and also higher value I am just a little more nervous about the risk and expense of a court claim.
x

Yes, just sit back and wait for their next move.

There's no knowing who they may assign it to, but if it's a debt purchaser who isn't FCA authorised then they shouldn't issue legal proceedings, but that probably won't stop them from trying!

Di

[Lola girl]

I'm pretty sure MBNA will assign this debt soon too. Their collection process has been the usual pattern with the usual suspects (CRAs) pursuing you. When one runs out of steam (template letters) the baton is passed to another CRA.

You say the credit agreement is enforceable but I see from your post that Niddy also cast doubt on the overall validity of the response.

The credit agreement isn't the only reason for a debt to be unenforceable in court which PRA discovered when they issued a claim against me and lost as you can see from this post by Jo >





Di

Hi Di - hope you are well.

I guess I just need to sit back and wait, see what they do next. As this is my only possibly enforceable one and also higher value I am just a little more nervous about the risk and expense of a court claim. Maybe if it’s sold on now after 3 years a CCA to the new owner may bring up something entirely different!
x

[PlanB]

I am pretty sure that MBNA must be getting close to selling this one on. The agreement was deemed enforceable and it’s one of the largest ones.
Does anyone have any experience with MBNA?
lola x

I'm pretty sure MBNA will assign this debt soon too. Their collection process has been the usual pattern with the usual suspects (CRAs) pursuing you. When one runs out of steam (template letters) the baton is passed to another CRA.

You say the credit agreement is enforceable but I see from your post that Niddy also cast doubt on the overall validity of the response.

The credit agreement isn't the only reason for a debt to be unenforceable in court which PRA discovered when they issued a claim against me and lost as you can see from this post by Jo >

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGNMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Di

[Lola girl]

• Type of account: MBNA C/ C
• Date commenced: 9.1.14
• Approx balance: £7k
• Date last paid: Aug 2018
• Are you on arrangement: DMP
• Status: Default 25.3.19
• Account owner: O/C

CCA request 30/7/19 - no response as yet

15/8/19 - letter from Moorcroft saying they have asked the OC for the relevant documents. They advise also that they are not seeking to ‘enforce’ the agreement, they are only asking me to make an affordable repayment towards an outstanding debt. Very nice of them! Guess I just cancel the StepChange payment and wait to hear from them

28/8/19 letter received from Moorcroft with 2 years of statements and an agreement. Sent over to Niddy to be checked.

30/8/19. Enforceable....however Niddy advises that it isn’t a lawful s78 response. Advised to do nothing.

28/9/19 x5 phone calls / texts from Moorcroft this week, all ignored but they managed to catch me on the last one, I said I would not discuss anything over phone so could they please remove number and write only in future.

2/10/19 received two letters from Moorcroft. First one giving me 7 days to make arrangement to pay. The second one advising that stepchange have cancelled payments so would I contact them to discuss.

28/10/19 letter from Moorcroft stating they are concerned I’ve not been in touch. Would I like to pay the outstanding by instalments? I have 7 days to respond. Filed

12/11/19 letter from Moorcroft, concerned I have failed to set up repayment plan. Advise if I do not contact in 7 days they may continue to contact me, send a home visit or continue adverse entry on credit report. Filed
23/11/19 letter from Moorcroft - they have passed my account to the 'Home Collections Dept' and this MAY involve a local representative calling at my home to help me reconnect and establish my circumstances. If I want to avoid this I can contact them to arrange to pay by 02/12/19. Their client may be able to offer a substantial discount! Filed and ignored
06/01/20 Discount offer letter from Moorcroft - to prevent the possibility of further recovery action being taken the client may be able to offer a substantial discount, if I pay an acceptable lump sum within 14 days they will not pursue the remaining balance. Filed and ignored.
05/02/20 - Good News letter from Moorcroft - if I telephone them today I can have either an interest free repayment plan or a substantial discount! Filed and ignored
18/02/20 Statement received directly from MBNA, confirmation 22/08/19 was last payment made to them
20/01/21- annual statement received directly from MBNA
30/1/21 - letter from MBNA, account collection now passed to Wescot Credit Services Ltd.....here we go again.
9/4/21 - letter from wescot asking me to pay. Also postcard from them asking me to ring. Filed and ignored
11/4/21 - letter from wescot, enquiries show i live at this address but they haven’t heard from me. Filed
21/4/21 - letter from wescot reduced settlement on offer. Filed and ignored. Also texts arriving every few days, all deleted.
09/05/21 letter from wescot - giving me an opportunity to take control of balance. Also daily calls and texts all ignored.
21/5/21 letter from 2f ? Titled Confirmation of residency. Says that MBNA will take further steps to re-establish contact if I do not speak to them. 2f is trading name for wescot. Filed and ignored.

I am pretty sure that MBNA must be getting close to selling this one on. The agreement was deemed enforceable and it’s one of the largest ones.
Does anyone have any experience with MBNA?
lola x

[Never-In-Doubt]

Things change through time / the more hands it crosses. Time is a great way to see the errors build up

[Lola girl]

Right - fair enough. Just keep a watch and let us know if anything changes. Good luck.

Thanks Nid, this one was enforceable (although you did say it wasn’t a lawful response) so hopefully they carry on taking their time doing anything with it!

[Never-In-Doubt]

Right - fair enough. Just keep a watch and let us know if anything changes. Good luck.

[Lola girl]

Is it still with MBNA? When did you stop paying / default?

Yes still with them. Last paid August 18, defaulted March 19. Passed to moorcroft then wescot. Just receive the odd statement from MBNA otherwise nothing really.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Is it still with MBNA? When did you stop paying / default?

[Lola girl]

Hiya

Well they've not utilised RoSO in the last year or two since they joined the LBG have they? So it's a gamble, but you should be cautious.

So in your situation -

1. the kids accounts with Halifax are in your name = at risk of RoSO.

2. your personal Lloyds account = at risk of RoSO.

3. your MBNA card (debt) *cannot* edit, update or service any of the accounts under 1 & 2 above but they *will* (if they look) see that you hold accounts within the group.

4. ditto, Lloyds & Halifax *can* see you have an account with MBNA but won't know the status / debt / etc - they'll just see a list of brands and products held.

So if it was me, I'd move away from LBG in entirety. There's too much risk that MBNA will attempt to have LBG utilise RoSO.

Under £500 they don't bother. They tend to go for your current account once there's £500+ in there. They'll do it multiple times in any period too - it's not just a one-off.

All that being said, I now have 3 reward accounts with Halifax and cycle £1500 through all 3 and leave £500 in each to use on card payments so I get 3 x £5 each month. In 3+ years I've never encountered RoSO and back in the day, I think I was near £75k owed to HBOS! But I take the risk safe in the knowledge the worst I'd lose is just £1500 - but I have a CC with MBNA, Lloyds & Halifax so I'd just go and spend the same if they pulled that stunt.

In fairness in my case it was +15 years ago though.

Well I don’t have a great deal as a in there even on payday so hopefully they will just stay out of it. As a single parent with a mortgage and bills to pay I’d have a hardship claim straight in if they tried anyway! My daughter is learning to drive so will be using her money for a car after august using up that money. Fingers crossed they just sell it off!
lola x

[Never-In-Doubt]

Hiya

Well they've not utilised RoSO in the last year or two since they joined the LBG have they? So it's a gamble, but you should be cautious.

So in your situation -

1. the kids accounts with Halifax are in your name = at risk of RoSO.

2. your personal Lloyds account = at risk of RoSO.

3. your MBNA card (debt) *cannot* edit, update or service any of the accounts under 1 & 2 above but they *will* (if they look) see that you hold accounts within the group.

4. ditto, Lloyds & Halifax *can* see you have an account with MBNA but won't know the status / debt / etc - they'll just see a list of brands and products held.

So if it was me, I'd move away from LBG in entirety. There's too much risk that MBNA will attempt to have LBG utilise RoSO.

Under £500 they don't bother. They tend to go for your current account once there's £500+ in there. They'll do it multiple times in any period too - it's not just a one-off.

All that being said, I now have 3 reward accounts with Halifax and cycle £1500 through all 3 and leave £500 in each to use on card payments so I get 3 x £5 each month. In 3+ years I've never encountered RoSO and back in the day, I think I was near £75k owed to HBOS! But I take the risk safe in the knowledge the worst I'd lose is just £1500 - but I have a CC with MBNA, Lloyds & Halifax so I'd just go and spend the same if they pulled that stunt.

In fairness in my case it was +15 years ago though.

[Lola girl]

Although they're separate companies within the same group; this means they can't cross-brand match you. For instance MBNA systems will not allow access to your Lloyds accounts, and vice versa. That being said, they do have a management system that does show all accounts using a full search. Example, you apply for a credit card with Lloyds, Halifax, Bank of Scotland or MBNA - they'd see all accounts held with the group (LBG). This stops you breaching internal rules such as no more than 3 cards via the parent brand.

My point is, you should be fine however you should also be careful as they *can* utilise RoSO within the parent group as each individual product clearly allows for it.

My advice would be to get new banking out with the group. I've been stung with RoSO from the old HBOS Group and can confirm it does happen!

As MBNA don't offer current accounts they'll not see your Lloyds accounts however Lloyds staff may be able to see you have an account with MBNA on their systems. They won't be able to access it or service it but they'll see it exists.

They operate on a CRN (customer reference number) basis. That's where the link to all accounts originates. So again, Halifax could see your Lloyds accounts under your CRN but couldn't edit or view anything. They'd just see they exist. That's all.

So any review / underwriting / fraud or debt department could link and utilise RoSO at any point.

Thanks Niddy - that makes total sense. The current account is with Lloyds (don’t owe them anything) and the kids money (in my name till at least August) is with Halifax (don’t owe them either). So I think you are saying I ‘should’ be ok as MBNA shouldn’t be able to access any money I have going into either. I had some small amount of savings in Lloyds which I have moved to Santander just in case. Hopefully MBNA will sell this debt off soon anyway!

[Never-In-Doubt]

I have just read something saying that MBNA were taken under the Lloyds banking group in 2019. Has anyone else heard this?
My current account and bills account and my kids savers (in my name) are with Lloyds....thinking about the offset rules!

Although they're separate companies within the same group; this means they can't cross-brand match you. For instance MBNA systems will not allow access to your Lloyds accounts, and vice versa. That being said, they do have a management system that does show all accounts using a full search. Example, you apply for a credit card with Lloyds, Halifax, Bank of Scotland or MBNA - they'd see all accounts held with the group (LBG). This stops you breaching internal rules such as no more than 3 cards via the parent brand.

My point is, you should be fine however you should also be careful as they *can* utilise RoSO within the parent group as each individual product clearly allows for it.

My advice would be to get new banking out with the group. I've been stung with RoSO from the old HBOS Group and can confirm it does happen!

As MBNA don't offer current accounts they'll not see your Lloyds accounts however Lloyds staff may be able to see you have an account with MBNA on their systems. They won't be able to access it or service it but they'll see it exists.

They operate on a CRN (customer reference number) basis. That's where the link to all accounts originates. So again, Halifax could see your Lloyds accounts under your CRN but couldn't edit or view anything. They'd just see they exist. That's all.

So any review / underwriting / fraud or debt department could link and utilise RoSO at any point.

[Never-In-Doubt]

A bank cannot offset a child's money / anyone else's money. So if you owe a bank money but have a joint account - it's safe. If your kids or parents have an account - they're safe.

Of course if you have accounts in your name but put the children's money in there then they can take that as RoSO as it's in your name.

A bank, particularly LBG (HBOS) can *and does* utilise group RoSO - I had money in a BoS account snatched based on a debt to Halifax! I got my revenge but still.....

So Lloyds & MBNA can see other credit products held but they use different systems for servicing. So if you have an mbna credit card, they would not see your Lloyds bank / savers. They're two different legal entities and thus they use different systems entirely.

If it was Lloyds -> Halifax they'd see both, but only if they did a search or a review. If you had no lending they'd likely miss it.

[Warwick65]

I can’t move the kids savers as they are fixed for 2 years. I’d rather not leave my Lloyds accounts, but I have moved any spare money into Santander and will just leave my bill money. Hopefully they will sell the account on soon and it won’t be a problem. Wonder if it happens much in practice

Depending on the amount of money there is in them and the penalties for moving within the fixed term I personally would be cautious. Hopefully if they are running the MBNA book as a stand alone they will not notice.