Marlin Financial Services

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

I suspect it will soon be time to get my "Tin Hat" on and await their cavalry charge....

In the UK or in the American colonies?

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

Squeeze the old cheeks tight mate

Pixie's cheeks?

[PlanB]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

But they did not comply with section 85 - which requires them to send a copy of the executed agreement - did they?

That's got me thinking. Section 85 specifically states that a copy of the executed agreement must be provided. No ifs or buts.



85 Duty on issue of new credit-tokens.

(1) Whenever, in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; F1. . .

(b) F1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(3) This section does not apply to a small agreement.



Does s.85 refer to the issuance of replacement plastic cards when the current one expires, or only when it changes name due to a buyout or rebranding etc?

I might ask XXXXX about that since my Barclaycard started as a MSDW product so maybe I should have got sent a copy of my original CCA when it was bought out by Barclaycard. Andrew has already said that Barclaycard should have issued new Ts & Cs when they took over.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

That's got me thinking. Section 85 specifically states that a copy of the executed agreement must be provided. No ifs or buts.



85 Duty on issue of new credit-tokens.

(1) Whenever, in connection with a credit-token agreement, a credit-token (other than the first) is given by the creditor to the debtor, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it.

(2) If the creditor fails to comply with this section—

(a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; F1. . .

(b) F1. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

(3) This section does not apply to a small agreement.



Does s.85 refer to the issuance of replacement plastic cards when the current one expires, or only when it changes name due to a buyout or rebranding etc?

I might ask XXXXX about that since my Barclaycard started as a MSDW product so maybe I should have got sent a copy of my original CCA when it was bought out by Barclaycard. Andrew has already said that Barclaycard should have issued new Ts & Cs when they took over.

But a buy-out / rebrand is not a new credit token at all. A new credit token is a whole new account (ie close the old one and reopen a new one) or like in your case, when it went restricted to non restricted.

If you have a visa with Bank A and then they sell it to Bank B - so long as Bank B do not change the terms of those that were last in force then there is no issue (but they'd need to issue new terms and card). I had this exact same argument with Citi when they sold it to that Progressive Finance company and they refused to continue my agreement - I went nuts but apparently because they were changing terms when they bought Citi cards portfolio that meant they credit searched all existing customers and closed the accounts of those not fitting their criteria - me included.

My point is unless the terms are changing then in my opinion s.85 isn't applicable.

Andrew is correct, whenever a change occurs to any credit agreement then a copy of revised terms must be issued. So as in this case, the Accucard went to Lloyds who then issued their own card keeping the same terms, but they literally changed the words Accucard to Lloyds and thus when they issued a new card there was a terms and conditions amendment with new terms enclosed - I know cos I had an Accucard (Easy Group) myself and remember it quite vividly.

The main difference was my card was 0.8% cash back and 16% APR. The replacement card and terms gave 3 months notice that cash back was ending and new APR would be 13.9% - I didn't owe anything and just closed it as I didn't like lloyds.

[Pixie]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

I also received one of these letters but mine wasn't for a Lloyds TSB card. They've noticed that I haven't set up a repayment plan...

[The Tech Clerk]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

I also received one of these letters but mine wasn't for a Lloyds TSB card. They've noticed that I haven't set up a repayment plan...

Have they just come from Specsavers?

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

My point is unless the terms are changing then in my opinion s.85 isn't applicable.

That is not what the law states now, nor is it what the law stated when it was enacted.

Before section 85 (1)(b) was repealed, it stated that if the creditor defaulted on their obligation under s.85(1)(a) - to send a copy of the executed agreement with any new or replacement card - then an offence would have been committed if that default lasted for a month or more.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

That is not what the law states now, nor is it what the law stated when it was enacted.

Before section 85 (1)(b) was repealed, it stated that if the creditor defaulted on their obligation under s.85(1)(a) - to send a copy of the executed agreement with any new or replacement card - then an offence would have been committed if that default lasted for a month or more.

That theory won't stand up in court.

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

That theory won't stand up in court.

Why not/

It seems to be just as clear as any other bar to enforcement, such as failure (or refusal) to comply with a request made under section 77, 78 or 79, or the creditor sending illegible rubbish in response to such a request.

It is not even conditional upon the debtor paying a statutory fee for a copy of the agreement and any documents referred to therein.

[Enforcer]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

Then would they need to send a copy of the "original" CCA from accucard / Texaco, or would the Lloyds terms & conditions suffice?

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

Heaven alone knows, as the original agreement was made online, with terms and conditions mixed and matched from choices made by the customer, whereas the LloydsTSB card would have had a standard set of terms and conditions applicable to all holders of a LloydsTSB Platinum Visa card.

One might reasonably doubt that sufficient data was transferred from Accucard for LloydsTSB even to attempt a plausible recon.

[julian]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

Hope so.

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

Hope so.

There's only one way to find out.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

Heaven alone knows, as the original agreement was made online, with terms and conditions mixed and matched from choices made by the customer, whereas the LloydsTSB card would have had a standard set of terms and conditions applicable to all holders of a LloydsTSB Platinum Visa card.

One might reasonably doubt that sufficient data was transferred from Accucard for LloydsTSB even to attempt a plausible recon.

I agree on both points. The terms were originally selected from a choice of 3 - if I recall it was APR / Cashback / BT's and you slid a slider on which you wanted cheapest and the others moved accordingly. There were allegedly 3 primary options on each slider and thus there were 27 variants of terms for the main "Accucard".

When Lloyds took over they wrote to customers and attached a new card with replacement terms which was a better APR (usually 13-16%) than the best option you had with Accucard but I'm not sure how accurate Lloyds were and I'm sure there were errors due to the variants of Accucard.

I think if Lloyds took action theyd encounter issues regardless of s.85 because quite simply although the card was always unrestricted by nature, I think as a result of all the terms and the way they just sent a new card with the new terms may not satisfy s.60/61 let alone s.78. I could be wrong but we are talking about Lloyds and although I remember getting a new card and terms; I didn't notice anything saying they'd bought Accucard or anything. I remember the card was stuck to a letter but I didn't really pay much attention. I just thought it was a new card and now cash back stopped. I did get told cash back was stopping about 3 months earlier but that was only on a statement. There was no formal letter & certainly no opt-out & close option.

Its only now that I realise the relevance from a layman perspective and how easy to be fooled it was ( as a cardholder)

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Marlin Financial Services

Then would they need to send a copy of the "original" CCA from accucard / Texaco, or would the Lloyds terms & conditions suffice?

I don't think so, in my opinion. I'D be more concerned at the terms associated with your Accucard versus the replacement terms with Lloyds.

That'll be your saviour if they attempt legal action.