Elephant in the room

[cardiac arrest]

Re: Elephant in the room

Just digressing a bit...does a contract need to have a determinate contracted period, ie not be open ended ?

I ask this in the context of those who have entered into a reduced payment period on outstanding balances on debts. I know of some cases where a notional payment of £1 per month has been 'arranged' and continued for in excess of 6 years...with no apparent end date....

This might be nonsense in 'rolling credit agreements', but thought I might ask the question anyway, not least because isn't one the prescribed terms that a repayment period is stated ?

[cardiac arrest]

Re: Elephant in the room

Just harking back to the debate about s78 and so on...As i see it, the debtor is teasing the creditor with a CCA request , to see if they have the right documents.

If they have, then usually a course of action would follow..ie arrange a payment profile maybe (unless there is something else).

If the CCA request produces something questionable, then the debtor sniffs an 'opportunity' (if that is the right word). Like..well if they haven't even got the s78 stuff...etc

Paul alludes to having something more concrete...and of course the debtor can usually remember things from when they applied. But being aware (now) of what is important and what may be irrelevant may cause the debtor to try and think back at what he/she did or saw or had back then, more so if a s78 has failed to convince.

Then the pathway is, what did I receive, what did I sign etc etc...so a s78 actually acts as a catalyst for further enquiry in many respects. Rightly so too, because, as again has mentioned, you'll need more than a s78 non compliance if you are to defend. On a positive note,a DCA or OC that admits or reveals a s78 failure, may think twice about enforcing..and if they do not, then a debtor can be reassured I would think that s127 requirements are not compliant either.

Armed with that, why would you pay..it's like saying 'I dare you'..and if they do not dare, then I guess you can feel a little more comfortable..particularly if you know PT's were missing, or an agreement wasn't signed etc.

cat and mouse really..

[jon1965]

Re: Elephant in the room

I am sure we have all had , in reply to our S78 requests the reply " we can not at present fulfil your request and as such will not chase you until such time as we can produce an agreement"

[PriorityOne]

Re: Elephant in the room

I am sure we have all had , in reply to our S78 requests the reply " we can not at present fulfil your request and as such will not chase you until such time as we can produce an agreement"

Actually, a friend of mine has recently received a letter which more or less states that...... on a post-2007 debt.

[jon1965]

Re: Elephant in the room



And who said DCAs had a brain.

[Enforcer]

Re: Elephant in the room

Barclaycard have written to me regarding my agreement that was not signed on behalf of the Bank. I have a copy.

It is clear from the copy of your agreement that there are signs indicating our acceptance of your application, this is shown in the references added and the bar code attached, which confirm our acceptance and subsequent processing of your agreement.

We deem your credit agreement to be fully compliant and any allegations that it is not will be opposed.

Can anyone advise as to when the regulations were changed to replace a signature with a bar code?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Elephant in the room

Can anyone advise as to when the regulations were changed to replace a signature with a bar code?

There are no such regulations.....

The agreement needs to be signed by both you and the lender before it is deemed "executed".

[cymruambyth]

Re: Elephant in the room

My well educated DJ advised me that a date stamp was a bank signature!

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Elephant in the room

My well educated DJ advised me that a date stamp was a bank signature!

Your DJ was a twat then....?

[Spent2much]

Re: Elephant in the room

Your DJ was a twat then....?

a bit like our DJ , there's a lot of them around it seems :

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Elephant in the room

a bit like our DJ , there's a lot of them around it seems :

well yea, but who would argue that point?

Its kinda slack to say the least, Carey - whilst sorting out the do's from the do not's, has done little else than confuse the uneducated (ie most bank staff) and allow fraud. In essence, no other industry in the world would allow you to create a false and inaccurate copy based on YOUR own records. If there are no records then fudge it and make it look good and we'll see you alreet kinda attitude.

It stinks.

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: Elephant in the room

Well it may well be a good point there.

It would be good to explore every angle rather than just has there been non compliance with s78 and of course the opinion of others may well shed light on things too.

Lest not forget that there are many issues, such as

Is the agreement cancellable? were cancellation rights served and if not then that may render the agreement unenforceable forever and a day

Did the agreement that was signed contain the prescribed terms

Did the debtor sign an agreement?

Did the account get opened online? if so was it before 1st Jan 2005

Has there been any estoppal issues,

Has there been unfairness?

If one just looks at s78 one loses those points

Just caught up on this thread!

This is an interesting post and points that Paul raises, especially for those of us who struggled on with a DMP for some time and made efforts to pay back debts at affordable payments.

I'm very interested in the cancellation element. To memory I think I have only had one cancellation notice which was from Amex.

What agreements typically have cancellation rights? Credit Cards? Loans? This is an interesting point I'd like more info on!

The unfairness route is also worth exploring. If you take my current Shop Direct issues, I wrote to them on numerous occasions, to which they completely ignored almost all my correspondence, only writing once to refuse a payment proposal, and continued to slap charges and interest on the debt until it almost doubled.

Now I would consider this unfair by any stretch of the imagination!

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Elephant in the room

All consumer credit should have cancellation rights.

Is it s.64 CCA..?

edit: Consumer Credit Act 1974 s.64 <<- Linky

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: Elephant in the room

All consumer credit should have cancellation rights.

Is it s.64 CCA..?

edit: Consumer Credit Act 1974 s.64 <<- Linky

Thanks Niddy. So this is interesting, and for me makes it actually important to get a 'true copy' of the executed agreement, as if there are cancellation rights in the agreement then its important to see them.

So if a creditor serves a default notice on a debtor, would this be sufficient to classed as 'cancellation'?

Or does a debtor have to service a default notice and then send a cancellation notice?

[Spent2much]

Re: Elephant in the room

well yea, but who would argue that point?

Its kinda slack to say the least, Carey - whilst sorting out the do's from the do not's, has done little else than confuse the uneducated (ie most bank staff) and allow fraud. In essence, no other industry in the world would allow you to create a false and inaccurate copy based on YOUR own records. If there are no records then fudge it and make it look good and we'll see you alreet kinda attitude.

It stinks.

i would , its just as well my other half is at the court hearing over the charge and not me because i would be thrown out : :