Installing Linux

[ScabHunter]

Re: Installing Linux

You can even edit the boot file so that it boots into Windows by default if you really want to. But I guess you won't be doing that.

Thanks for the tip!

I probably will do that on the fastest PC, because I use that mainly for RX2 which is proprietary Windows software. I wouldn't do that on a PC connected to the internet and used for general computing tasks, because I now think Linux handles those so much better.

I'm glad to see your sorting your problems out with Mint 14. It must be incredibly frustrating to be held back by hardware issues. I was very lucky that this netbook responded properly right from the word go.

I did mean to ask rizzle whether there were any lists of hardware which is know to be problematic, so you can avoid it when buying a new PC. I suppose it is difficult, as both Linux and the hardware are constantly changing.

SH

[Riz]

Re: Installing Linux

Some distributions certify hardware/systems to work with their distribution. Ubuntu for example.

Certified hardware | Ubuntu

One of my Laptops is on the list. Didn't buy it on that basis though.

Some distros/sites used to maintain lists of what was reported to work and what didn't, but as you say, it is hard to keep up, that seems to have fallen by the wayside for most. Especially since the linux kernel constantly has support for new devices/hardware added on and improved every few months.

Majority of hardware works out of the box unless it is so new that no-one has written drivers etc for it yet, or if you have a quirky model. Then again, with linux becoming a little more mainstream, many manufacturers make sure support is there even for brand spanking new stuff.

Some things can be problematic though. The 2 major examples are graphics cards and wireless.

When buying the laptop I am tying this from I annoyed the shop by demanding to know the exact model of graphics and wireless chip BEFORE I parted with cash, so I could go home and Google for any known problems.

[evilcartman]

Re: Installing Linux

When buying the laptop I am tying this from I annoyed the shop by demanding to know the exact model of graphics and wireless chip BEFORE I parted with cash, so I could go home and Google for any known problems.

I think only the staff in real computer shops would know the answer to that. The spotty youths in PC World certainly wouldn't have a clue. :

[Riz]

Re: Installing Linux

I think only the staff in real computer shops would know the answer to that. The spotty youths in PC World certainly wouldn't have a clue. :

I had to show them how to find the info.

[ScabHunter]

Re: Installing Linux

After the big weekend it is time to give some more thought to this. Linux is better than Windows at the vast majority of tasks, and if foobar2000 and RX2 can work in Wine then it would be virtually self sufficient. The big weakness is in graphics and images. I still have to boot into Windows to use Paint.NET, because that is reported as being completely incompatible with Wine. If I could find a similar program for Linux, that would be perfect. GIMP is utterly incomprehensible, and everything else seems to be too basic to get the job done.

As far as the partitions go, I would have very basic needs. I rarely store data on a PC for any length of time, as it gets moved over to the 2TB external drives. I've already found by experimentation that Mint can access the Windows desktop, so that really acts as a temporary storage area which can be accessed by both systems. My /home partition will also only need to small, for the same reason.

I'm in an unusual situation, because I've got one PC which has a huge drive (1TB), and another which has a tiny one (40GB). The 1TB obviously needs to be partitioned to give virtually all of the memory to Windows, as Linux can still access it. The 40GB is barely going to be big enough to handle two systems in any case, so it will need to be a light install with no excess software. It may even be necessary to forget about the /home partition for that one.

I'll give it a bit more thought before going ahead.

SH

[SXGuy]

Re: Installing Linux

I have always been somewhat 50/50 with linux being used as my full time OS to use.

I love the speed of ubuntu
I love how easy it is to mount a windows parition and backup any files needed should windows fail to load.

Its helped me to recover friends files a number of times, one of which was when Windows Vista update caused a constant reboot.

i love the fact that their installation system tends to give real error reporting whereas windows can often just flash the dredded BSOD at you if your lucky and if you are not, gets stuck in a loop cycle which could mean absolutely anything.

When my work pc's motherboard decided to stop working correctly, (error reading cpu temp and thus causing an overheat alert and shuting down windows)

I was able to detect the cause with just the ubuntu live cd, and whats more, at the time i did not know the exact reason for the reboot loop.

So in that respect ubuntu is really nice to use.

the other 50% which puts me off is having to use terminal commands for specific tweaks or installations.

Maybe its my lack of knowledge of the system but im unaware of any GUI i can use to install or tweak settings without using terminal commands.

Its that which keeps me from moving over completely if im honest.

[Riz]

Re: Installing Linux

Depends what you want to tweak?

There are things like gnome-teak-tool, unity-teak-tool, ubuntu-tweak and others....

Plus much more powerful system configuration tools like Webmin.

[SXGuy]

Re: Installing Linux

Depends what you want to tweak?

There are things like gnome-teak-tool, unity-teak-tool, ubuntu-tweak and others....

Plus much more powerful system configuration tools like Webmin.

Webmin seems to answer a lot of my questions!

See, told you it was prob my lack of knowledge lol

[ScabHunter]

Re: Installing Linux

Linux Installations

I decided that last night was the right time to carry out the Linux installations which I had been planning, and it appears that they have both worked without any trouble. I've obviously been extremely lucky, in that none of the hardware has decided to create chaos as it did for evilcartman.

I didn't need to ask Rizzle whether I should install Mint 13 or 14, as he'd obviously made that clear before. So, my old netbook is now running 13, but the two desktops are running 14. With separate /home partitions holding any data, the desktops will be easier to upgrade when the next release comes.

For the benefit of anyone reading this and wanting to try Linux, I'll try to give an exact account of the night's events. Firstly, I had to boot the netbook, which already had Linux installed, into Windows! That sounds ironic, but you need Windows XP or 7 to be able to create the bootable USB stick. I downloaded the 32 bit version of Linux Mint 14 MATE for the smaller PC, the one with only a 40GB drive, and then downloaded the exe file from Pendrivelinux. Running the exe allows you to create a USB stick which will contain the operating system.

Before I even thought about trying to install Linux, I navigated to the Disk Management section of Windows XP. This told me that the operating system was on one huge partition which used up well over 30GB of the available 40 (actually around 36). That is bad news in a way, because it means that the 'shrink volume' operation, which could have created some unallocated space for Linux, would not be available from the right click menu. It also told me that only a small percentage of the volume was actually being used. This is good news, as it means that the Linux installer can shrink the volume without risk to the existing Windows XP installation.

It is not easy to allocate space when you only have a 40GB drive to play with, but here is what I did. With only 1GB of RAM, I decided it was best to allocate 2GB to the swap partition. I allowed a full 10GB for the Linux root partition, not a great deal but as much as I could spare. It should be enough for a light installation, with relatively few programs. Only 3GB was allocated to /home, as I don't need a lot of storage space. I make extensive use of external hard drives, and Linux can always store material on the Windows desktop. That makes 15GB for Linux, leaving just under 25GB for Windows XP and the storage which can be used by both.

The first thing I had to do during the Linux install was to shrink the existing giant volume. This was nerve wracking, as it directly affected the partition with the existing operating system. Once this had been completed, it was easy to create the other partitions. Make sure that you have access to a calculator when you carry out this process, as you will need to work in megabytes and not gigabytes. I found the job easy enough, and once the partitions had been created, Linux installed without difficulty. When I tested booting into Windows, it did perform a disk check before it booted.

I then downloaded the 64 bit version of Linux Mint 14 MATE, for use on the larger machine. I had to recreate the bootable USB stick using this different version. I also went into the Windows 7 Desk Manager, and found that this time the OS was installed on small partitions at the start of the disc. This meant that I could shrink the large volume which made up the rest of the disc, ready for Linux.

I thought at first that the larger PC was going to give me grief, as the USB stick didn't seem to be on the boot menu. There was, however, an option called “1.0”, so I thought I'd just try it and see what happens. Thankfully, this booted the PC from the USB stick. Huge relief, as I haven't got a clue what I could have done otherwise.

I had decided to allocate 8GB to the swap partition, which is only an exact match of the PC RAM. There should be less need to use the swap space when the PC has 8GB RAM available, and when I don't really run any intensive applications. I allowed 20GB for the Linux root partition, twice as much as on the smaller PC. I set the /home partition at 50GB, although that is hardly likely to get used. That still leaves the vast majority of the 1TB drive to Windows, which is ideal because Linux can also access it without any difficulty.

This installation was easy, as there was no need to manipulate the volume which housed the Windows 7 operating system. Linux booted without difficulty, and when I booted into Windows it didn't even need a disc check. This may have been because the Windows 7 partition was never altered, or it may just have been because Linux was installed at the far end of memory which Windows had presumably never needed. Who knows?

Everything seems to work well, but I'll obviously carry out more tests today. Remember, it is still only three weeks since I did my research into Linux for the first time. I am still a noob, but at least I've progressed to the level where a basic install is no longer a problem. The Linux Mint OS itself is highly impressive, and I recommend creating a dual boot system if you can. I don't have any problems with Windows XP or 7, but Linux is better for most computing tasks. Windows Hate, of course, can only be used in mental hospitals for making the patients worse.

I hope this is of some use to people who are considering installing Linux. If you have any questions, please post them below.

SH

[Riz]

Re: Installing Linux

Excellent.

Must admit that I was dubious at first about allowing the installer to resize the Windows OS partitions, but seems like they have got that one cracked nowadays and it is as safe these things can reasonably be.

[diddlydee]

Re: Installing Linux

SH, I am completely ignorant of all things techie so only know that I use Windows 7 on my pc, Windows XP on my laptop and Android on my phone - that's about all I can tell you.

Could you explain why someone would benefit from having another OS on their PC. Would another OS be completely separate, ie, would your saved documents, programs etc be kept in Windows 7 and therefore not openable on a new OS?

I am intreagued...

[ScabHunter]

Re: Installing Linux

Could you explain why someone would benefit from having another OS on their PC?

A lot depends on your personal preferences. I used Windows XP Pro for seven years without any trouble, and the PC I bought last March has Windows 7. I found that relatively easy to adjust to. When I bought a laptop in November, it was running Windows Hate (8), which was a total disaster. After many hours of trying to get it to work, I had to give up and return it while it was still under the Amazon return policy. I suspect the hardware was defective also, but Windows Hate is a nightmare.

There is no guarantee where Microbug will go with their next OS. Even though the overwhelming reaction to Hate has been negative, there are reporters who suggest that they have made their choice and are going to stick to it. Even though refurbished PCs running XP or 7 are likely to be available for the next ten years, where does that leave the PC user?

It was at this point that I decided to research Linux for an alternative. I did a crude Mint4Win install of Linux Mint 13 on an old netbook just for experimentation – and have used it for virtually everything ever since. Linux is faster, the design of the desktop (MATE) and the start menu leave Windows for dead, and there is a reduced risk of infection from viruses and trojans. I can get more work done in the same time using a Linux operating system.

The only negatives are potential hardware conflicts, and the fact that many proprietary software programs are Windows only. Some of these will work on Linux under Wine, and some will not. Only in rare cases are there no alternatives, and if you are keeping Windows on your system there is no real disadvantage anyway.

Would another OS be completely separate, ie, would your saved documents, programs etc be kept in Windows 7 and therefore not openable on a new OS?

Your saved documents on Windows are accessible to the Linux operating system. On the PC I am using now, I just select 'Computer > 76GB File System (that will be different depending on your capacity) > Documents And Settings > [my name] > Desktop. That is the Windows desktop, as opposed to the Linux one which displays under 'Computer'. That is why I allocate very little space to Linux, because files stored there cannot be accessed by Windows.

It is also possible to create an extra partition purely for data storage, accessible by both systems. I haven't created that because it doesn't fit in with the way I operate, but someone who stores a lot more data on the actual PC would probably benefit from doing so. Nearly all of my files are on external hard drives.

SH

[SA Gold]

Re: Installing Linux

The only negatives are potential hardware conflicts, and the fact that many proprietary software programs are Windows only. Some of these will work on Linux under Wine, and some will not. Only in rare cases are there no alternatives, and if you are keeping Windows on your system there is no real disadvantage anyway.

The only negative i would add to that is the user! The amount of desk/laptops i've looked at for people with a screwed up OS with no recovery media/partition who only really need web based stuff anyway still would rather go to Currys and hand over £3-400 for a new Windows machine when installing Ubuntu would save them all that money!

If we are talking business, then that's a totally different argument

[evilcartman]

Re: Installing Linux

It does amuse me that my recent experience of Linux and Windows 8 has been polar opposites to ScabHunter's.

I find Windows 8 to be a beautiful OS 'under the bonnet', where it really counts. They seem to have finally nailed the memory management problems that has dogged Windows throughout most of its life and I'm finding this aspect of the OS to be approaching Linux levels of efficiency now. I know that's a bold statement but I'm finding my present setup to be blindingly fast - significantly quicker than either Ubuntu or Mint when I've had them running on the same hardware (I've had to use an older graphics card to do so, as Linux just does not get on with my more recent one).

As you might see in other threads, I have had no end of problems getting Linux to accept my Radeon graphics card. I can still construct a Linux box from spare desktop parts and will do so once I've obtained a new PSU to replace the current faulty one. But I still want to be able to dual-boot Linux on my newer desktop and want to retain this Radeon card in it because I use it for gaming in Windows. I will get there in the end but have been too busy on other stuff, so that project is on a backburner for the moment. But anyway, my point is that Linux distros such as Ubuntu and Mint do make installations far easier than they used to - but you can still come a cropper when you have hardware that the installer doesn't like.

[Enforcer]

Re: Installing Linux

Totally agree with you. I now have 2 computers and my laptop running windows 8. All of my business programs, including QuickBooks Pro work. I have also installed my XP Plus pack into win8 and it works. Used to love Ubuntu, however latest versions gave me grief with wireless connectivity,and graphics cards. Win 8 does not like to dual boot with Ubuntu, Ubuntu takes over boot manager. Unfortunately, ditched Ubuntu. Windows 8 does everything that I need! Will not look back.