Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

I've just seen this.

I'd like to ask, how old is your son? Sorry if you've said but I've missed it. I'll then give you some help as go how ID Fraud works; that is my industry after all, however be prepared for some cold hard truths....!

Thanks for this. My son is 18, 19 next month. He's seen me go through an awful lot over the past ten years including redundancy, house repossession and subsequent BR and in most instances is mature in his attitudes but in others is a typical teenage boy!

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Hiya

Ok thanks for that. Based on the age of your son and everything said in the posts above, coupled with the Wonga credit scoring process the odds of a third party doing this is about 1% and thus you'll find you will meet resistance from almost all avenues, sadly. I have just read each post again and from what I am reading there is one possibility and that is the only option. I will explain.

Everything you said up until the Wonga loan is plausible. Cards do get cloned and used, forget the PIN as a cloned card generates a new PIN so the PIN at this point is irrelevant. You need to think more about lending processes and add to the fact that Wonga is one of the most difficult PDL's to get accepted by, as they directly link to both National Hunter and Experian Delphi. So what I'm saying is that whoever applied for the loan, knew everything about your son and passed ALL verification, this cannot be fraud - it was done by one person and one person alone and I am sorry to say, that one person can only be your son.

My background is fraud, I do this for a living. It is not possible to pass Delphi and N Hunter using guesswork, it will auto-decline based on application inconsistencies so for example based on your theory of events, that your son has told you, someone managed to guess, from FB, your sons full name, date of birth, length of residency, length of time at employment / college, exact salary / student loan amount (ie income), exact length of time at school, home address details, previous address details, bank details including account number and branch.

If any of the data supplied differed from the last true application then N Hunter would issue an 'Applicant Refer' code and the bank (Wonga) would immediately reject the loan application and put it in for manual underwriting at which point it'd get rejected.

It was going great until the Wonga issue came up. I'd suggest you speak to your son and this time tell him what I have said above. I am sorry but this is 99% suspicious and from re-reading the thread each time I come up with the conclusion that it is your son at the centre. Whether he has used a mate to do the deed (withdrawals) so as not to identify him, I don't know but I'd seriously be asking some very searching questions.

Quite simply, if this was not your son it could only be his best friend or another family member that would know pretty much his life story to the month - remember N Hunter works by picking up inaccuracies within application data so if your son got his length of residency and his job start date wrong by a month (ie two small errors) then N Hunter would pick up on that and the application would be rejected. Hence I cannot buy the story being fed, and neither are the bank or Wonga - clearly.

Read about Delphi & N Hunter.

I can elaborate this in greater detail for you and explain how some of the algorithms work but I felt it best to keep this in Plain English.

I can prove this to you, we simply do a SAR to Wonga & N Hunter and we will then see the data provided to both - that will show that whoever did apply, if not your son, knew pretty much his whole life story to the detail. In all my years, for £300, it is not likely.

This I am sorry to say is all pointing at your son. Is he skint? Has he been out a lot or purchased anything lately? Does he have a gambling/drink/drugs problem? You need to ask these soul searching questions as it does all point back to your son no matter how much of a spin you put on things.

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Okay, thanks for this NID. However, could you explain something? My son earns nothing - no student loans, no benefits or other income of any sort - so how would he have passed those checks? He is in the second year of his diploma having switched courses after his first year so not at University or anything similar which would enable him to qualify for a grant and as at college doesn't qualify for any benefits.

Sorry - just spotted the last few bits so wanted to add some more.

My son lives at home with me and his 8 year old sister. If he needs something he asks for it. He doesn't have any addictions - unless you count the computer through which him, and his two best friends, play on-line pretty much all the time he's not at college. The only things my son wants are new computer parts and as has a birthday coming up he knows he will get the money then anyway. I have asked him these questions and have done much soul searching - it seems so difficult to believe someone could know all this - however I know he didn't do this and I trust his best friends. The one person I do have a concern about is an ex-boyfriend of my son's but even he wouldn't have all the details - especially the new PIN (which was 5 digits so my son's just told me).

How do I go about getting a SAR (and what is it)?

Thanks again

Thanks

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

When he changed his PIN he was on his own in the shop as he didn't meet his friend till later. However the shop does have a CCTV camera pointing in the general direction of the cash till inside the shop

You can SAR the shop for the footage yes, however I wouldn't bother as I think you'll be shocked at the result and to be honest the shop is likely to say they record over tapes every 24hrs using a loop, ie unless the Police call in the same day and take the tape it literally re-records itself over and over - it's quite normal for cheap cctv systems.

See here -> https://www.gov.uk/request-cctv-footage-of-yourself & here -> http://ico.org.uk/for_the_public/top...ic_guides/cctv

As I say, it would be a bit of a wasted effort in all honesty.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Okay, thanks for this NID. However, could you explain something? My son earns nothing - no student loans, no benefits or other income of any sort - so how would he have passed those checks? He is in the second year of his diploma having switched courses after his first year so not at University or anything similar which would enable him to qualify for a grant and as at college doesn't qualify for any benefits.

Thanks

That helps explain it easier...... So whoever did this KNEW that and obviously on the Wonga application said so, ie no income, no job, not at college. So think about it, the reason the checks were passed is because the applicant could only be one person..... I work to law of averages and nothing said so far has convinced me - it is your son. He is the only logical explanation. Maybe that's it - he thought he'd get away with it but really he's causing a lot more trouble, time to walk away maybe and drop the act - be honest and pay Wonga back and walk away. Is he overdrawn with HBOS and if so, how much by?

I'm sorry to tell you this so bluntly but you are missing the point. The only people who can usually beat Delphi & N Hunter is a genuine applicant. A fraudster wouldn't - not for £300!

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

NID, while I appreciate your comments as being from someone who works in the industry, a search of the internet and reputable web sites does show that Wonga checks fail - Watchdog for one.

I edited my earlier post, probably while you were replying, and there is a bit more in there which may help.

My son is not overdrawn with HBOS - he has the basic Visa debit account which doesn't even have an overdraft, made a mistake once of about £2.50 which was cleared straight away. I will not be paying Wonga for two reasons, the main one being I can't afford to (I am a discharged BR) and two I am certain my son didn't take the loan out (and I am not a parent who believes her children can do no wrong as I know they can).

Can someone explain to me what the CCA and SAR are and how I go about getting them?

Thanks

[cymruambyth]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

A CCA is a consumer credit agreement and SAR is a subject access request. The CCA costs £1 and should arrive in 12 days. A SAR should supply all data held on a person by the company, costs £10 and should arrive within 40 days. If you follow this link it should tell you how to sign on to the AAD site and access the templates for obtaining these. http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...-New-Templates

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Ok well believe what you want but I've told you your answer. I'm sorry you don't want to hear it.

It's the WHOLE chain of events that rouse suspicion. Wonga like all firms make mistakes but not likely at the point your son lost his card. Law of averages suggest otherwise.

Who did you want to SAR? If Wonga, then save time & effort. Formally complain and they'll tell your son what was said on the application. They do have a complaints dept. if they don't agree you then complain to the FOS.

Thats the process to resolve this.

[SXGuy]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

I think all Niddy is trying to say, is that a fraudster, would have had an easier job, if he/she had actually stolen the card and tried to withdrawl money from an ATM.

I admit, I too had my fear from reading the thread that only one person can be the culprit of it. However, if you are 100% certen its not your son, then it can only be someone very close to him.

I know you say you trust his best friend, but I have known plenty of people who are best buddies one moment, and stab you in the back the next. I'm not saying it is your sons best friend, im just saying you have to think logically, rather than emotionally as to who I could be.

Forget the pin as that makes no different, you don't need a pin to apply for credit online.

As Niddy says, it is someone who knew all the correct info, and the only person who can do that, is either him, or someone very close to him.

SAR'ing or CCA Requesting documents, is only going to confirm that correct details were used. Online applications don't have real signatures, so you haven't even got that to match it to, to find the person.

Its a really hard situation to sort out, if there are no suspects to start from.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Thanks SX, that's a good summary of what I was hinting at. The thing is everything leads back to one person, the card, the pin, his details - for someone to have access to ALL of this limits the possible subjects - I'd start by looking at anyone in contact with your son on the day of the PDL.... for example, if your son went and changed his PIN (so had the card on his person) and then went home with a friend and stayed in his room all day with the friend - no other visitors - and the card was noticed missing AFTER the friend left and the PDL was applied for AFTER he left as well, then that narrows it to two people (your son and his friend) - the card is paramount because the PDL would require a test authorisation so the correct card and CCV details were also used.

Ask Wonga the exact time of the loan submission and ask for the registered email address as emails would be sent to confirming the loan, and new account registration..... Has your son had any emails? I think it's too much, this all leads back to one person and you won't believe that so it might be bests to move on and just argue via the FOS and see what they conclude.

See where I'm going with this - it is so easy to figure out if you think about things.

[LATE]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

I really do appreciate everything people have said and I am listening and understanding all you have said. I have also got my son to read everything that's been written and had frank and open conversations with him. I still believe he had nothing to do with this nor did the one friend he saw for 10 minutes (not when changing his pin).

I thank you all again for your advice, I know you are trying to help but the whole situation is adversely affecting my health - as any money worries do with me - and I may struggle to respond further.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Ok so how about moving away from how, and look at what - ie what now?

I think SnV is your best bet at arguing with Wonga but your son needs to call hbos and cancel the recurring payment authority.

[jj19]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

Just two points and I may be entirely wrong
1) I have never heard of a five digit pin for a debit card,
2) In all my experience pins can only be changed at proper bank atms not shop atms.

You say you did wonder about your sons ex. How much would the ex know. I have lost count of people i know who have been conned by ex boyfriends.

[IF]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

I thank you all again for your advice, I know you are trying to help but the whole situation is adversely affecting my health - as any money worries do with me - and I may struggle to respond further.

Ok so how about moving away from how, and look at what - ie what now?

I think SnV is your best bet at arguing with Wonga but your son needs to call hbos and cancel the recurring payment authority.

Agree with Nid, lets move on to what can be done now

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: Advice please - Card stolen, used to obtain Wonga Loan and money withdrawn!

I really do appreciate everything people have said and I am listening and understanding all you have said. I have also got my son to read everything that's been written and had frank and open conversations with him. I still believe he had nothing to do with this nor did the one friend he saw for 10 minutes (not when changing his pin).

I thank you all again for your advice, I know you are trying to help but the whole situation is adversely affecting my health - as any money worries do with me - and I may struggle to respond further.

Hi Late

I totally understand your feelings, however to clear your sons name I'm afraid that you are going to have to steel yourself a little more as if you're to convince the bank he was not involved you are going to have to be prepared to answer the same questions.

I do know that Wonga have fraudulent applications made, and I'm aware of some of the mechanisms that were used to do so (insider information), but they are never going to publicly acknowledge these mechanisms (and some have also been addressed) so your only recourse here is to put aside beliefs and feelings and deal with hard facts.

So moving forward:

1) Your son needs to inform his bank IN WRITING that any continuous payment authority, direct debit or standing order made with regard to Wonga is immediately cancelled. They may tell him they cannot do this and if this happens please come back here and let me know and I'll put together a letter for you on how to respond to this. Your son needs to do this on Tuesday - do not delay with this else Wonga will empty his bank account and compound the situation further.

2) You say you can see the cash withdrawal made on your sons online banking. His bank should be able to tell you exactly which machine this withdrawal was made from (though they may try to deny this, but they CAN you just may need to be a little pushy). If he can prove he was nowhere near this cash machine then that helps you.

3) You need to put in a formal complaint to Wonga asking for all information made during the application. If they refuse to provide this information then you can consider a CCA request.

Best
SnV