XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

Do you think they will try and issue court proceeding when they are unable to send me a signed copy of the CCA?

They might, but the turds will have ignored the rules of the Fundamentally Clueless Authority if they did.

They should also be prevented from obtaining judgement in their favour until/unless they provide at least a reconstituted "twue copy" of the agreement.

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

I've not heard anything further from Nationwide or Shoosmith's.

But I have had a response to my 3 CCA requests from Barclaycard which I will send in to be looked at.

I have attached the letter I got from Barclaycard. Are the points they make valid.

No - they are disingenuous bastards.

They have also been just a bit too clever for their own good, as the request is s78(1), not s78(6) as they mistakenly averred.

The "reconstituted" twue copy of the executed agreement must include the terms and conditions at the time the agreement was made; it need not be on the same piece of paper as the agreement but it must contain all the terms referred to in the agreement. It should also include any revision of those terms made after the agreement was signed.

From the letter, it would appear that BarclayCrud has sent a recon with later terms and conditions, which might not comply with the request and, whilst it is (regrettably) no longer a criminal offence to fail to comply with the request. s78(6)(a) still means that the agreement cannot be enforced until and unless the creditor does comply with the request.

Still, what else might one expect from a subsidiary of the LIBOR fixing swindlers, if not a corporate culture based on corruption and lies?

[XX007]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

OK Pixie I will wait and see what happens.

One other thing I have link financial wanting me to fill out an income and expenditure form in relation to another debt. Would I be best to just ignore them?

[Pixie]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

Hi XX007

I think I would wait to see what you get next but make sure you pay the £6 per month.

We can't second guess what any DCA will do but the fact that they are unable to send you a signed copy of the CCA probably won't make any difference as the agreement was taken out post 2007.

[XX007]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

Hello everybody I have been able to enjoy a bit of a break from all this for the last month but I need an opinion or two about some things




Type ofaccount Creditcard - Nationwide
Date commenced October 2011
Approx balance £7,040


Date last paid April 2014
Are you on arrangement or not paying – I made an arrangement with them to pay £6 per month
Status default July 2014
Account owner Nationwide recoveries

July 2014 Agreed to my payment of £6 per month and defaulted me after I send income and earnings details.

Around early Feb 2015 they left a message forme to call them back and told me they intended to take action getting a ccj andputting an order on my house unless I paid them a lump sum of approx. 70% of myoutstanding balance told them I couldn't do this.

February got a letter giving me 7 days toaccept a discount on outstanding balance without prejustice and to call them
17th February got a final notice giving me 14days to get in touch and make an arrangementbefore court action starts
17th February send a letter asking if I canpay the offer in instalments but not had any response yet
03rd March sent a letter as per Mrs D's advice complaining I am not beingresponded to and I'm being harassed
07 March receive a letter from Nationwide saying the account has been outsourced to Shoosmiths Solicitors at a balance of £3,800 which is way below the actual balance of approx. £7,050
12 March receive another letter from Nationwide saying the management of the account will be carried out by shoosmiths sadly saying the balance is £7050 again
17 March receive a letter in response to the complaint saying they have done nothing wrong but interestingly saying they did not receive my letter of 17th February despite referring to it in their letter to me of 07 March
19 March receive a letter from Shoosmiths giving me 14 days to contact them by phone with a payment proposal before they issue court proceedings. They say they want me to reach a payment proposition so we can avoid court action.
19 March sent CCA to nationwide
25 March sent a letter to Nationwide making additional points in relation to the earlier complaint
25 Marchsent letter to Shoosmiths telling them I was complaining to the ombudsman about Nationwide handling of this case.
01 April Shoosmiths acknowledge my complaint
13 April Nationwide send me back my postal order for the CCA request saying they cant provide a signed copy of the agreement at this time
23 April Shoosmiths send me a final response saying they have done nothing wrong as they did ask me to contact them to negotiate a payment but stating the account is onhold until 01 June
15 May letter from Ombudsman does not uphold my complaint


As it’s now very nearly 01 June I suppose it will all start again. I am resigned to having to make a payment for this one to avoid court action I just need it to be as low as possible.The Ombudsman has stated in the letter Nationwide want to collect thisin 60 months which I can’t really agree to at present. Should I try making a smaller offer to Shoosmiths to start off with or just wait and see what their next move is.

Do you think they will try and issue court proceeding whenthey are unable to send me a signed copy of the CCA?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

See here --> http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...l=1#post497768

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

To clarify - neither the options are wrong. Just different ways of looking at it that's all.

PlanB is right saying check what is what - so you know where you stand - but all I'm adding to that is don't worry too much about any UE ones - just continue paying.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

I think establishing that your CCAs (Barclays x 3 and MBNA) are unenforceable is definitely a smart move as this should give you some sort of insurance policy against any imminent county court proceedings.

The creditor is forbidden from enforcing whilst a formal payment arrangement / agreement is in place and that is legislation not just CONC so until such time he is ready to make offers he does not need to upset the applecart.

Right now he is paying an agreed amount. As I suggested above, the best course of action is to get a formal agreement of repayment in place with the creditor which immediately stops ANY legal action. When he has saved enough to pay then at that point he needs to send a CCA. Between now and any claim / settlement the documents can be remedied so any s.78 / s.87/88 flaws right now are absolutely irrelevant to the main fact which is - he is paying into the debts each and every month.

There is no need for scaremongering - a claim will not be issued and if one is the last thing I would be worried about is CONC. I'd rather hide behind the fact I was paying into it which bars them an automatic right to enforcement. Anyway, wouldn't a Tomlin be useful if and when the time came to defend any claim, if there was a risk of losing?

I would still suggest getting something in writing from the creditor agreeing to the monthly amounts being received, do it directly. If you get it in writing that they are happy at £x per month and you indeed pay it then you are not in default and thus they have no right to issue a claim to demand full sums. You must get a formal agreement with the bank set up - read our templates --> http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...Debt-Templates

* request creditor accepts £1 payments template is what you need but edit the £1 to suit whatever you can afford.

[PlanB]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

I thought establishing that these agreements were unenforceable would allow me to be able to strike better deals when the time comes that I am able to make offers as well as keeping them on the back foot.

I mean Shoosmiths were threatening action about the Nationwide credit card which you have told me they wont be able to follow through on because they have not responded to my CCA request which is progress.

You have said the MBNA card is unenforceable as well and whilst I am not getting any hassle off Link at the moment I dare say that will change.

The same can be said of the Barclaycard agreements I have sent.

I thought all this was strengthening my position.

I think establishing that your CCAs (Barclays x 3 and MBNA) are unenforceable is definitely a smart move as this should give you some sort of insurance policy against any imminent county court proceedings.

The FCA rules (CONC 13.1.6) make it plain that a creditor should not seek to enforce a debt (through the courts) which is unenforceable:

(1) Failure to comply with the provisions means that the agreement becomes
unenforceable while the failure to comply persists, and the courts have no
discretion to allow enforcement.

(2) In such cases, a
firm should in no way, either by act or omission, mislead a
customer
as to the enforceability of the agreement.

(3) In particular, a
firm should not in such cases either threaten court action or
other enforcement of the debt or imply that the debt is enforceable when it
is not.

(4) The
firm should, in any communication or request for payment in such cases,
make clear to the
customer that although the debt remains outstanding it is
unenforceable.


Also all these debts have already been defaulted so there is the potential for those DNs to be defective too. Once you put these three potential breaches together s.78 s, 61(1) and s.87(1) and add in s.86C (if appropriate) then you'll have even greater insurance.

If your mission is to avoid a CCJ to protect your job then I think you're going about it in the right way. You're building ammunition to help to keep these debts out of court should that situation present itself. At the moment you are paying by arrangement, but even that alone may not prevent a claim from being issued (my Santander claim was served while I was in a DMP).

When it comes to offering a F & F in future it may well make sense to confront the creditors with the option of accepting your offer or the risk of getting nothing in court. Your rogue CCAs could become a bargaining point.

With any luck Barclaycard will get tired of your small payments and sell you on to a debt purchaser who will be more receptive to a low F & F since they'll have bought the debt for peanuts.

The NW result is great (for now) since that's the one you think may be enforceable due to the date the account was opened.

Anyway what's the alternative since you cannot afford to maintain the contractual payments or offer higher monthly arranged payments? Doing nothing can leave you feeling powerless.

You should be able to sleep better at night now that you've bought yourself some time.

Plan B x

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

If you're paying an AGREED monthly amount they cannot try and enforce. They'd be buggered. Keep paying. Chill till you're ready to make offers and at that point we then request a CCA as what is sent now may not be the same when you're ready to settle.

Save - Make Offer - Do CCA - Argue Amount - done.

[XX007]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

In a way that is what I am doing I already have payments going out to all my creditors which I need to maintain.

I thought establishing that these agreements were unenforceable would allow me to be able to strike better deals when the time comes that I am able to make offers as well as keeping them on the back foot. I thought I had been clear since I started the thread what my intention was (perhaps I have posted it in the wrong place)

I mean Shoosmiths were threatening action about the Nationwide credit card which you have told me they wont be able to follow through on because they have not responded to my CCA request which is progress.

You have said the MBNA card is unenforceable as well and whilst I am not getting any hassle off Link at the moment I dare say that will change.

The same can be said of the Barclaycard agreements I have sent.

I thought all this was strengthening my position. I didn't think I was pissing about and I am certainly not trying to waste anyone's time also I appreciate everyone's contribution.

[The Tech Clerk]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

Ermmm - I am lost.

If you are paying then no need to do anything, no CCA's - nothing. I now see your job from the applications but really, it's futile and a waste of time you looking at UE because you want to pay - so you're best just paying and forgetting arguing UE because it will affect your job, as you know.

Sorry to sound harsh but that's the cold hard facts unfortunately.... you need to be doing a self managed DMP with the intention of saving as much as you can and try and make F&F offers. You do not want to piss around with UE if you want to stay in your chosen career.

your choice cannot have it both ways I am afraid? DMP is a start self managed as mentioned here

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

I am paying to this and will continue to do so (for job reasons)

Do I need to do anything else or can I just sit back on this one for now?



Thanks for spending your time looking at my agreements.

Again as I have to keep repayments up should I send the missing terms now or keep it for when Link send their next set of threats.

Ermmm - I am lost.

If you are paying then no need to do anything, no CCA's - nothing. I now see your job from the applications but really, it's futile and a waste of time you looking at UE because you want to pay - so you're best just paying and forgetting arguing UE because it will affect your job, as you know.

Sorry to sound harsh but that's the cold hard facts unfortunately.... you need to be doing a self managed DMP with the intention of saving as much as you can and try and make F&F offers. You do not want to piss around with UE if you want to stay in your chosen career.

[XX007]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

Cool well that's currently unenforceable. Well done. Keep that letter very safe. They cannot enforce whilst the breach continues. But it CAN be remedied at any time by creation of recon agreement.

Are you paying into this? If so I'd consider cessation of payment ONLY if pre 04/2007

I am paying to this and will continue to do so (for job reasons)

Do I need to do anything else or can I just sit back on this one for now?

MBNA - within the application form, above where you sign at part 10 "Principle Cardholder Request & Declaration" - in the first line it quotes condition 11 which should relate to sharing of personal information etc - however term 11 on the terms they allege were given to you mentions not increasing the APR on certain transactions. Therefore as things stand this would be unenforceable, however it can be remedied at any time by them presenting correct terms.

The above said, if for any reason when you signed this at the airport, as you technically only signed the form, it would be a breach of s.60/61 based on being improperly executed because I promise you now, those terms were not handed to you at no airport - that would be impossible as the terms are not relevant to your account. I am implying that how would you read terms at an airport when you're busy anyway heading to checkin etc; coupled with the fact the advisor / rep completed the form whilst speaking to you and left you to sign - suggests it is improperly executed. Point is, for it to be properly executed the rep must hand you terms, you read them all, you then sign to accept the terms and then the rep can explain repayments, interest etc and make it properly executed. That would take between 20-40 minutes in total depending on how fast you can read a set of terms and absorb the info - forgetting the fact you're excited about your holiday so your mind isn't exactly 100% focussed on a salesperson hassling you....

You ought to send back the Missing PT's template from here --> http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...l=1#post489180

Thanks for spending your time looking at my agreements.

Again as I have to keep repayments up should I send the missing terms now or keep it for when Link send their next set of threats.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: XX007 - UE Diary - Tomorrow never dies

Type of account Creditcard - MBNA
Date commenced October 2001
Approx balance £20,700
Date last paid – March 2014
Are you on arrangement or not paying – made anarrangement with MBNA to pay £17 per month which I am continuing to do/ not paid Link anything
Status – default (oct/nov 14)
Account owner Link Financial

May 2014 wentthrough an income and expenditure on the phone when they said they would stopinterest and was then sent a letter saying I could pay £342 per month (Icouldn't then and I still cant)
July 2014send income and expenditure and offered £17 per month
July 2014 sent a letter giving me details to set up a standing order - did not mention anyacceptance of offer
August 2014 send me a notice of variation to my credit card account terms and conditions(not sure this is relevant, but I found it strange)
September 2014 sent default notice
November 2014 sent me a letter saying they were considering selling the debt and would I liketo make an offer (I missed this letter until it was too late)
December 2014 just before Christmas get a letter from MBNA telling me they have sold the debtto Link Financial on the same day I get a letter of assignment from link and I am told they own my debt and to start paying them the agreed £17 which wont bereviewed for 6 months from the assignment
January 2014 send link a cca request and MBNA a SAR
January 2014 link send me a letter saying it will take them 30 days to come up with it
February 2014 MBNA send me load of paperwork for their SAR
February 2014 Link respond to the CCA request.

I suspect this one is not enforceable, I have not paid Link anything so far but still pay MBNA £17 per month. They have not been hassling me yet, I'm not sure how to handle this or just leave it to them to make the next move.

MBNA - within the application form, above where you sign at part 10 "Principle Cardholder Request & Declaration" - in the first line it quotes condition 11 which should relate to sharing of personal information etc - however term 11 on the terms they allege were given to you mentions not increasing the APR on certain transactions. Therefore as things stand this would be unenforceable, however it can be remedied at any time by them presenting correct terms.

The above said, if for any reason when you signed this at the airport, as you technically only signed the form, it would be a breach of s.60/61 based on being improperly executed because I promise you now, those terms were not handed to you at no airport - that would be impossible as the terms are not relevant to your account. I am implying that how would you read terms at an airport when you're busy anyway heading to checkin etc; coupled with the fact the advisor / rep completed the form whilst speaking to you and left you to sign - suggests it is improperly executed. Point is, for it to be properly executed the rep must hand you terms, you read them all, you then sign to accept the terms and then the rep can explain repayments, interest etc and make it properly executed. That would take between 20-40 minutes in total depending on how fast you can read a set of terms and absorb the info - forgetting the fact you're excited about your holiday so your mind isn't exactly 100% focussed on a salesperson hassling you....

You ought to send back the Missing PT's template from here --> http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...l=1#post489180