Philyabootz UE diary (please help)

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

I entered into a debt management plan with step change over a year ago for a total debt of £40k

The original debts were to Tesco Loan £24k, Tesco CC £2k, Barclaycard £8k and MBNA CC £6k

I currently owe 2 debts to Intrun group £24k and £2k and 2 debts to PRA group £6k and 8k

The above debts were sold to the PRA and Intrun group in January this year and I have not missed any payments via step change (£407pm total)

I have asked for CCA agreements over 2 months ago and so far only PRA group have come back to me stating they have CCA for one of the debts (8K) but have confirmed they haven't as yet got CCA for the other debt (6K) and is so far UE

The debt for £8k (originally Barclaycard) was taken out in 1999 and they have provided me with a copy of my original signed agreement to the credit card. I have no idea where I legally stand on this one now or the best action to take?

As for my other debt with PRA group (6k) do I just now wait until they contact me again and in the interim stop the payments via step change?

The 2 debts with Intrun they have confirmed that they have received my CCA request letter and have cashed in the 2 cheques I sent for £1 but no letter has been sent to me for either debt

When I rang them for an update they were very non comittal

I just don't know what to do for the best next and feel a bit in limbo with it all?

Any help/advice would be appreciated, I don't mind paying a bit for legal assistance if anyone thinks this will help m

Thanks in advance

Phil

Hello Phil

I'll take a proper look at your thread tomorrow and then make some suggestions as to how you might manage this situation.

I (my firm) is no stranger to PRA

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Di

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

My advice is don't be pro active with PRA. I wouldn't be sending them anything. Silence when dealing with PRA

Not necessarily.

Di

[Warwick65]

[COLOR=#0000CD]
Did you lift that letter from another site? It seems to me to be giving them too much information, enabling them to rectify mistakes.

I think the letter may have been a combination of letters from this site. I have a remarkably similar letter I sent back in 2012 - it was the word 'adjudge' that sparked my recollection.

[philyabootz]

I would appreciate your thoughts on this letter and the above proposed steps I am looking to take

A few quick questions if I may:

Have PRA written to you since sending the copy agreement? If they haven't I would hold off sending anything at this time - remember, you need to be reactive not proactive.
What reason did Niddy give for the agreement being UE?
Did you lift that letter from another site? It seems to me to be giving them too much information, enabling them to rectify mistakes.

Hi please find answers to the points you have raised

Have PRA written to you since sending the copy agreement?
No, the letter read "please find enclosed the documents you requested. Please contact the office within 10 days of receiving this" ..which of course I never did.

What reason did Niddy give for the agreement being UE?
Niddy stated there "weren't complete terms accompanying the agreement, containing described terms" and is still UE in his opinion

Did you lift that letter from another site? It seems to me to be giving them too much information, enabling them to rectify mistakes
I copied and pasted the letter from a post on Martin Lewis forum which was a very similar scenario to mine, ie pre 2007 agreement company back with supposed enforceability etc


Hope this helps?

Thanks

[philyabootz]

Hello Phil

I'll take a proper look at your thread tomorrow and then make some suggestions as to how you might manage this situation.

I (my firm) is no stranger to PRA





Di

Thank you Di for taking the time to reply to my thread. I look forward to hearing your suggestions

Thanks again

Phil

[philyabootz]

I think the letter may have been a combination of letters from this site. I have a remarkably similar letter I sent back in 2012 - it was the word 'adjudge' that sparked my recollection.

I took this letter from a post on Money Saving Expert forum from earlier this year

Thanks

[Still Waving]

I took this letter from a post on Money Saving Expert forum from earlier this year

Thanks

There are numerous AAD letters covering a host of scenarios. You might consider using the appropriate one from here when you need to respond to PRA (or any other creditor). They are all carefully worded to avoid acknowledging a debt, but additionally we don't want to give creditors unnecessary opportunities to correct errors and omissions.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

• PRA Group £8700
• Originally Barclaycard not Egg or Goldfish
• Type of account credit card
• Date original CCA commenced May 1999
• Sold to PRA 13/12/2017
• Date last paid to PRA 01/07/2018 £130.59 via Stepchange
• Notes : CCA requested and original signed agreement from 1999 has been produced

A few questions from me in order to help to put things in context for you

Is this the PRA debt that Niddy says is unenforceable having seen the credit agreement which they sent you in response to your s77-79 CCA Request?

May I asked when you stopped paying the full amount (i.e. the monthly contractual amount)?

You say it wasn't Egg or Goldfish but could it have been Morgan Stanley Dean Witter credit card at the outset?

Was it assigned (sold) to anyone else before it was sold to PRA last December (2017)? The assignments are important.

Was there PPI on this account?

Sometimes flaws in a credit agreement can be remedied so it's always a good idea to have other irons in the fire.

Also s77-78 CCA is for 'information' purposes not 'proof' purposes. In the case of Santander v Mayhew (me ) I lost on the s78 argument but won on other legal arguments. See paragraph 14 of the judgment here > http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2012/14.html

Di

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

• PRA Group £5800
• Originally MBNA
• Type of account credit card
• Date original CCA commenced August 2016
• Sold to PRA December 17 I think?
• Date last paid to PRA 01/07/2018 £92.72 via Stepchange
• Notes : CCA requested and original letter back to state debt is currently unenforcable

Do you remember how you opened this MBNA credit card account? Was it online or in response to an invitation letter, or a promotion you signed up for in a store car park etc? Was it a MBNA card or was it a branded card

I can't see when you last paid the full contractual monthly amount so when was that?

From the dates you posted it looks as if the account may have only been live for just over a year. Was it started for any particular reason such as a balance transfer offer?

Would there have been PPI on this one?

Di

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

• Intrum Group £23600
• Originally Tesco Loan
• Type of account : Loan
• Date original CCA commenced Unsure
• Sold to 1st Credit (now Intrum) 26/01/2018
• Date last paid to Intrum 01/07/2018 £158.88 via Stepchange
• Notes : CCA requested 07/06/18 No response but the £1 cheque for CCA has been cashed

Have you any way of figuring out when you opened this Tesco loan? Perhaps the reason for starting it may jog your memory such as to consolidate other debts, or buy a car etc.

Was there PPI attached to the loan?

When did you last pay the monthly payment due under the terms of the loan, and how long would the loan have run for if it had continued to its agreed expiry date (such as 5 years or 84 months etc)?

And was it assigned direct to 1st Credit (if so when?) or was it assigned to someoneelse first? Assignments are important especially with 1st Credit.

Di

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

• Intrum Group £1600
• Originally Tesco Credit Card
• Type of account : Credit Card
• Date original CCA commenced Feb 2011 I think
• Sold to 1st Credit (now Intrum) 26/01/2018
• Date last paid to Intrum 01/07/2018 £24.81 via Stepchange
• Notes : CCA requested 07/06/18 No response but the £1 cheque for CCA has been cashed

Final one

Only a couple of questions for this debt.

When did you last make the full monthly payment and was there PPI involved?

Di

[philyabootz]

A few questions from me in order to help to put things in context for you

Is this the PRA debt that Niddy says is unenforceable having seen the credit agreement which they sent you in response to your s77-79 CCA Request?

May I asked when you stopped paying the full amount (i.e. the monthly contractual amount)?

You say it wasn't Egg or Goldfish but could it have been Morgan Stanley Dean Witter credit card at the outset?

Was it assigned (sold) to anyone else before it was sold to PRA last December (2017)? The assignments are important.

Was there PPI on this account?

Sometimes flaws in a credit agreement can be remedied so it's always a good idea to have other irons in the fire.

Also s77-78 CCA is for 'information' purposes not 'proof' purposes. In the case of Santander v Mayhew (me ) I lost on the s78 argument but won on other legal arguments. See paragraph 14 of the judgment here > http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2012/14.html

Di

Hi Di

Thanks so much for getting back to me with all your responses I will try and clarify the points you raised now :

Is this the PRA debt that Niddy says is unenforceable having seen the credit agreement which they sent you in response to your s77-79 CCA Request?

Yes

May I asked when you stopped paying the full amount (i.e. the monthly contractual amount)?

I stopped paying the full contactual amount to Barclaycard when I agreed/set up a debt plan with Stepchange in February 2017

You say it wasn't Egg or Goldfish but could it have been Morgan Stanley Dean Witter credit card at the outset?

It was 100% Barclaycard at the outset and remained that way throughout

Was it assigned (sold) to anyone else before it was sold to PRA last December (2017)? The assignments are important.

No I've just checked the paperwork and PRA acquired the debt in December 2017

Was there PPI on this account?

No

Also s77-78 CCA is for 'information' purposes not 'proof' purposes. In the case of Santander v Mayhew (me ) I lost on the s78 argument but won on other legal arguments. See paragraph 14 of the judgment here > http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/Misc/2012/14.html

Thanks for sending the link

[philyabootz]

Do you remember how you opened this MBNA credit card account? Was it online or in response to an invitation letter, or a promotion you signed up for in a store car park etc? Was it a MBNA card or was it a branded card

I can't see when you last paid the full contractual monthly amount so when was that?

From the dates you posted it looks as if the account may have only been live for just over a year. Was it started for any particular reason such as a balance transfer offer?

Would there have been PPI on this one?

Di

Do you remember how you opened this MBNA credit card account? Was it online or in response to an invitation letter, or a promotion you signed up for in a store car park etc? Was it a MBNA card or was it a branded card

I opened the MBNA Plat Credit Card with a Limit agreed of £7900 completed online in August 2016. It was MBNA card

I can't see when you last paid the full contractual monthly amount so when was that?

I stopped paying the full contactual amount to MBNA when I agreed/set up a debt plan with Stepchange in February 2017

From the dates you posted it looks as if the account may have only been live for just over a year. Was it started for any particular reason such as a balance transfer offer?

I opened and used it to 0% transfer a balance from another credit card onto it

Would there have been PPI on this one?

No

[philyabootz]

Have you any way of figuring out when you opened this Tesco loan? Perhaps the reason for starting it may jog your memory such as to consolidate other debts, or buy a car etc.

Was there PPI attached to the loan?

When did you last pay the monthly payment due under the terms of the loan, and how long would the loan have run for if it had continued to its agreed expiry date (such as 5 years or 84 months etc)?

And was it assigned direct to 1st Credit (if so when?) or was it assigned to someoneelse first? Assignments are important especially with 1st Credit.

Di

Have you any way of figuring out when you opened this Tesco loan? Perhaps the reason for starting it may jog your memory such as to consolidate other debts, or buy a car etc.

I have found the original paperwork for this Tesco loan. It was taken out for £25k in Jan 2014 at 11.1APR. I received £2500 extra of this amount as the other £22.5k was taken to pay off the existing loan I had with already had with Tesco. The existing loan paid off was at 11.2 APR and taken out in February 2012 again for 25k.

Was there PPI attached to the loan?

No

When did you last pay the monthly payment due under the terms of the loan, and how long would the loan have run for if it had continued to its agreed expiry date (such as 5 years or 84 months etc)?

I stopped paying the full contactual amount to Tesco loan when I agreed/set up a debt plan with Stepchange in February 2017. It was opened in Jan 2014 over 121 months so would have finished in Feb 2024. I had paid the full payment for 3 years and 1 month

And was it assigned direct to 1st Credit (if so when?) or was it assigned to someone else first? Assignments are important especially with 1st Credit.

The loan was assigned/purchased by 1st Credit on 26/01/2018. I have received NO paperwork from Intrun only the original account assignment from 1st credit in Feb 2018

[philyabootz]

Final one

Only a couple of questions for this debt.

When did you last make the full monthly payment and was there PPI involved?

Di

When did you last make the full monthly payment and was there PPI involved?

I stopped paying the full contactual amount to Tesco loan when I agreed/set up a debt plan with Stepchange in February 2017. There was NO PPI involved.


Hope that helps to clarify everything. Please let me know if you require anything else before your assessment/advice.

I will wait to contact Stepchange re going self managed and cancelling DD etc until I have heard back from you

Thanks again, I genuinely am overwhelmed by how helpful everyone on this site has been