Amex-Charge card

[garlok]

Re: Amex-Charge card

Don't panic for the moment mate. An awful lot has changed in various bits of legislation and regulations. I was put right recently by the guys on here about overdrafts, I always thought they were specifically excluded but it is not so. Hence I woiuld send the CCA request off as suggested and sit and see. At the very least they are required to return the PO and stae clearly in their view that the card does not fall under the legislation.

Until told differently, I would sit and see, and wait to see if anyoine with better knowledge on the charge card situation comes along as they surely will if I am wrong.

Just my thoughts on it for now.

regards
Garlok

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

Thanks Garlok
I will get moving on this one then
GM

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

I have their on line signature,at least I know they have received my request.

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

Don't panic for the moment mate. An awful lot has changed in various bits of legislation and regulations. I was put right recently by the guys on here about overdrafts, I always thought they were specifically excluded but it is not so. Hence I woiuld send the CCA request off as suggested and sit and see. At the very least they are required to return the PO and stae clearly in their view that the card does not fall under the legislation.

Until told differently, I would sit and see, and wait to see if anyoine with better knowledge on the charge card situation comes along as they surely will if I am wrong.

Just my thoughts on it for now.

regards
Garlok

Hi,just got my Christmas mail from Brachers(Amex Sols) telling me that the agreement is exempt from CCA regs as it is a charge card account not a cc account.
They then go on to make reference to s16(5) of the 1974CCA and to article 3 of the CC(Exempt Agreements)Order 1989.PO was returned
Have I got a next move or is this one that I have got to live with?
Thanks
GM
Have a Merry Christmas AAD peeps

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Amex-Charge card

Weird, I understood Amex (Charge Cards) to be a Debtor-Creditor agreement which would not, under "Running Accounts" be exempt, only a Debtor-Creditor-Supplier would become exempt...?

It should be noted, however, that although the terms 'charge card' and 'credit card' are commonly used to distinguish the two types of agreement, the definitions are not recognised by the Act. Some types of facility described as charge cards may in fact be credit cards, or vice versa.

Taken from: ---> OFTRegulatedAndExemtAgreements.pdf

I'm confusing myself here as not totally with it, don't worry - let me look into this some more PLUS other people will be able to help, just bear with us as it is x-mas eve after all.

The references used by Amex are found below:

:---> The Consumer Credit (Exempt Agreements) Order 1989
:---> CCA 1974 - s.16(5)
:---> Article 3 of Consumer Credit Exempt Agreements Order 1989

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Amex-Charge card

Ok, quoting the legislation, and in particular Article 3, the charge card would only form a D-C not a D-C-S agreement so the red section highlighted is relevant as the others are all to do with D-C-S agreements....

The Consumer Credit (Exempt Agreements) Order 1989 (Article 3) Exemption of certain consumer credit agreements by reference to the number of payments to be made by the debtor

3.—(1) The Act shall not regulate a consumer credit agreement which is an agreement of one of the following descriptions, that is to say—

(a)a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement being either—

(i)an agreement for fixed-sum credit under which the total number of payments to be made by the debtor does not exceed four, and those payments are required to be made within a period not exceeding 12 months beginning with the date of the agreement; or

(ii)an agreement for running-account credit which provides for the making of payments by the debtor in relation to specified periods and requires that the number of payments to be made by the debtor in repayment of the whole amount of the credit provided in each such period shall not exceed one;

not being, in either case, an agreement of a description specified in paragraph (2) below; and in this sub-paragraph, “payment” means a payment comprising an amount in respect of credit with or without any other amount;

(b)a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement financing the purchase of land being an agreement under which the number of payments to be made by the debtor does not exceed four; and in this sub-paragraph, “payment” means a payment comprising or including an amount in respect of credit or the total charge for credit (if any);

(c)a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement for fixed-sum credit to finance a premium under a contract of insurance relating to any land or to anything thereon where—

(i)the creditor is the creditor under an agreement secured by a land mortgage on that land which either is an exempt agreement by virtue of section 16(1) of the Act or of article 2 above, or is a personal credit agreement which would be an exempt agreement by virtue of either of those provisions if the credit provided were not to exceed £15,000;

(ii)the amount of the credit is to be repaid within the period to which the premium relates, not being a period exceeding 12 months; and

(iii)there is no charge forming part of the total charge for credit under the agreement other than interest at a rate not exceeding the rate of interest from time to time payable under the agreement mentioned in head (i) above,

and the number of payments to be made by the debtor does not exceed twelve; and in this sub-paragraph “payment” has the same meaning as it has in paragraph (1)(b) above; and

(d)a debtor-creditor-supplier agreement for fixed-sum credit where—

(i)the creditor is the creditor under an agreement secured by a land mortgage on any land which either is an exempt agreement by virtue of section 16(1) of the Act or of article 2 above, or is a personal credit agreement which would be an exempt agreement by virtue of either of those provisions if the credit provided were not to exceed £15,000;

(ii)the agreement is to finance a premium under a contract of life insurance which provides, in the event of the death before the credit under the agreement referred to in head (i) above has been repaid of the person on whose life the contract is effected, for payment of a sum not exceeding the amount sufficient to defray the sums which, immediately after that credit has been advanced, would be payable to the creditor in respect of that credit and of the total charge for that credit; and

(iii)there is no charge forming part of the total charge for credit under the agreement other than interest at a rate not exceeding the rate of interest from time to time payable under the agreement referred to in head (i) above,

and the number of payments to be made by the debtor does not exceed twelve; and in this sub-paragraph, “payment” has the same meaning as it has in sub-paragraph (1)(b) above.

(2) The descriptions of agreement referred to in sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph (1) above and to which accordingly that sub-paragraph does not apply are—

(a)agreements financing the purchase of land;

(b)agreements which are conditional sale agreements or hire-purchase agreements; and

(c)agreements secured by a pledge (other than a pledge of documents of title or of bearer bonds).

Now tell me if i'm wrong, but the relevant red section at the top does not meet the criteria of the Amex Charge Card so surely this exclusion is void? Yea they could (maybe thats what they refer to?) argue point 3(1)(a)(ii) meets it (an agreement for running-account credit which provides for the making of payments by the debtor in relation to specified periods and requires that the number of payments to be made by the debtor in repayment of the whole amount of the credit provided in each such period shall not exceed one;) but I dunno..... that must be the clause they refer to?

As I say my head isn't with it right now but that's the sort of things you need to read up on.

You could SAR them and get the details you need, that'll screw them up a wee bit

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

Thanks Niddy
Perhaps after Christmas would be a better time to bone up.
Thanks for the swift reply
Here's to 2012

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

They used my £1 PO against the o/s balance,This makes me concerned about the £10 fee for SAR.
I have'nt stopped payment(Token amount)yet.Once the way forward has been sorted(Hopefully)then I can make a move towards concluding this.
Niddy whats your opinion on this please?
Thanks
PS Happy New Year to you

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

Niddy
Am I reading this correctly that point 3(1)(a)(ii) refers to d-c-s whereas my agreement(being allowed to draw cash and use for any purchase)is d-c and the exemptions don't apply to d-c agreements.(Page 6 of the agreement)
So my Charge Card is regulated?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Amex-Charge card

So my Charge Card is regulated?

As you'll see from my last post, I also suspect this card is regulated but for the same respect they don't wanna be using your £1 CCA fee toward any debt, as that's a fundamental breach - basically it's resetting SB which is NOT what you asked of them and also within the CCA you also stated that the funds were NOT to be used for anything other than to provide the request.

I would leave it for now, keep me posted with any letters/threats and then we'll come back to it and argue, right now I don't have the time to get involved so best see what happens with this. :niddy

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

OK Niddy
Thanks

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

Sorry to be a pain in the rs Nids but I would really appreciate your opinion ,if time allows,on the following extract:
Consumer Credit Act 1974
1974 CHAPTER 39
16 Exempt agreements.
(5) The Secretary of State may by order provide that this Act shall not regulate other
consumer credit agreements where—
(a) the number of payments to be made by the debtor does not exceed the number
specified for that purpose in the order, or
(b) the rate of the total charge for credit does not exceed the rate so specified, or
(c) an agreement has a connection with a country outside the United Kingdom.
as this is part of their defence.

Thanks Niddy
GM

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Amex-Charge card

I posted this info previously

I'm not 100% sure, as I say it's wrong in my opinion but my opinion isn't law.

Sorry but I'm confused with it, I'll try read into it later

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

Thanks Niddy,much appreciated.

[greymatter]

Re: Amex-Charge card

SAR sent today by Recorded Delivery.
Will update when stuff received.
GM