PRA Group full and final settlement help please

[1Gent]

The assistance I need is relating to MBNA CC debt that has been defaulted on (no payments made since May 2017), hopefully someone can help advise my best option/s.

Attached are two letters received from PRA, the first just after they bought the debt (May 2018) and the second a few days ago, neither have been responded to in any way. Sorry if I’m being paranoid by editing out even the £ amounts but thought better safe than sorry.

PRA_1_Edit.pdf
PRA_2_Edit.pdf

My initial thought when receiving letter two was that ignoring their first letter had been a good idea and that I would probably try to raise the 7K and pay it off, however having re-read it I’m now not so sure.

What I found interesting was that the words ‘full and final settlement’ exist in the first letter but not the second and to me the part I have bordered in green on the second letter purposely leaves the possibility the remaining debt will remain live or be sold on to a third party

Anyway, what I’d like to know is;

• Should I pay or is there a chance the debt won't be fully cleared?
• Better to start by sending a CCA Request?
• However, if a CCA request were successful and PRA have got and produce said docs how do I stand then? Might I end up being chased for the lot?

Lastly, even having posted this in the unenforceable credit agreements section I’m not sure I’m particularly inclined to play the long game like some on this forum (even though I have all the respect in the world for those who do), although I guess this will largely depend on the response to my last question above.

Many thanks
Bob

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Hello

I'd like to ask you a few questions before making my suggestions.

When (what year) did you open this MBNA credit card and how did you open it (i.e. online, invitation letter, over the phone etc)?

Was this account assigned to anyone else before PRA such as Varde or Aktiv Kapital, and does the name Experto Credite mean anything to you?

My advice will probably be for you to send a s 77-79 CCA Request to PRA but wait until things become clearer before doing that.

Even if PRA are able to produce a credit agreement that doesn't necessarily mean the debt will be enforceable since there are many other statutory duties which need to be complied with.

Read about the the case of PRA v Diana Mayhew ( me ) and you'll see what I mean >

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

I look forward to helping you.

Di

[1Gent]

Hello Di,

Many thanks for the quick reply.

Opened July 2011.

May have been online but more likely an invitation but the only paperwork I have doesn’t show this.

Not previously assigned so far as I can tell, seems to have gone directly from MBNA to PRA. I have read about Experto Credite onine but don't believe they were involved.

I get what you say about a possible CCA but bear in mind that even though I consider DCA’s leaches of the worst kind it might not suit my circumstances to go through a slow process.

I’m guessing your second but last paragraph should read; Even if PRA are able to produce a credit agreement that doesn't necessarily mean the debt will be enforceable?

Thanks for the reference to your own case, you will be pleased to learn that I have not only read about it here in the past as well as on other forums but it is also probably the main reason it was in the back of my mind to tread carefully if PRA ever became involved in my case.

Thanks again
Bob

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

May have been online but more likely an invitation but the only paperwork I have doesn’t show this.

What paperwork do you have and where does it come from?

Di

[1Gent]

I have now checked the paperwork I have and other than the two letters attached to my first post (which also had terms I have now also attached), all other correspondence was only ever from MBNA. These are generally to inform me the account had defaulted and to say the original credit agreement had been terminated and the debt sold to PRA.

Thanks
Bob

Terms of PRA.pdf

[Warwick65]

Hi
I will leave you in Di's capable hands but I was curious why you think a slow process is not for you? It might be that you send a S77-79 request and they reply saying they don't have it/can't get it and you might never hear from them again. This happened to me with a couple of debts although they were pre 2007 ones

Also, you have a default now and to a certain extent, even settling it in full will not fully repair your credit file , the default will be there for 6 years. Mine is just coming back, I only have 3 left and 2 vanish in November

[1Gent]

Hello Warwick65,

It’s just that I’ve won the lottery and don’t need the money
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..
…………………..…………………..

Sorry only kidding – but couldn’t resist

I was very careful with the terminology I used! The word may in my sentence above is there as several things in my life, or that maybe in my life, could make the (long game) as I call it undesirable. Hence also why I said in my original post that had I trusted this discount from PRA I would have been tempted to try and clear the 7K to get it off my back.

I’d previously read the default is there now for up to 6 years (presumably starting at the point MBNA wrote to say it had defaulted?) But I’m sure some could appreciate that not everybody wants to have to spend several years having to regularly consider where they are with such a thing, it doesn’t have to mean they are scared, worried or stressed by it at all, just that they would prefer to put it to bed if they can.

This is the reason why as well as the CCA possibilities I’m as interested in whether the alleged discount from PRA is likely to be a set-up, con, fib, call it what you will which encourages a debtor to get in contact with them, or whether it is likely to be a true ‘Full and final settlement offer’.

[Warwick65]

I do understand why there may be events and situations in your life that make dealing with debt or playing the long game not the best option. My significant other worries more about my debt than I do if I'm honest and yes, it has led to decisions that may have been different if they had not been there.

Your default will remain on your credit file from 6 years starting the date it was first recorded, this may be different to what the creditor says- for example I have a couple of debts where they sent multiple default notices , non of which tally up with the actual date recorded but that may only become something to look at in the future.

As I said, a couple of my debts had replies saying they could not find the agreements and the debt was unenforceable- they are now three or four sheets of paper in a file which I never look at.

I believe that sometimes these offers of discounts are worded and intended to get the debtor ( how I hate that word) to engage with the creditor- they hate it when you wont engage so any communication is best done carefully and in writing.

The general ethos of this site is set against people getting into debt through life changes and the site empowers them to deal with it. That isn't to say help isn't given if people want to follow an alternative route. My personal stance is to help people if possible make an informed decision so they can do what is best for them.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

there as several things in my life, or that maybe in my life, could make the (long game) as I call it undesirable. Hence also why I said in my original post that had I trusted this discount from PRA I would have been tempted to try and clear the 7K to get it off my back.

I’d previously read the default is there now for up to 6 years (presumably starting at the point MBNA wrote to say it had defaulted?) But I’m sure some could appreciate that not everybody wants to have to spend several years having to regularly consider where they are with such a thing, it doesn’t have to mean they are scared, worried or stressed by it at all, just that they would prefer to put it to bed if they can.

This is the reason why as well as the CCA possibilities I’m as interested in whether the alleged discount from PRA is likely to be a set-up, con, fib, call it what you will which encourages a debtor to get in contact with them, or whether it is likely to be a true ‘Full and final settlement offer’.

I completely understand your need to "put this debt to bed" and "get it off your back".

I'm also fully aware of the psychological approach taken by debt purchasers coupled with their relentless need to make a profit. Debt is a commodity bought and sold. It's not personal. You and all other debtors are simply a number on a spreadsheet.

I also agree that nobody wants to spend several years dealing with debt but sadly that's not something that's within your control. The debt purchasers/creditors hold all the cards until you find a way to turn the tables. A section s 77-79 CCA Request can be the start of shifting the dynamics.

Di

[Still Waving]

Hi IGent

In your post you stressed the important word "may". Just to point out that word also figures in the first letter from PRA. I think their offers should be treated with the utmost caution.

[1Gent]

Thanks both,

So is the current suggestion that doing a CCA Request is the only option here?

Di, With respect I can't completely agree with your statement 'sadly that's not something that's within your control' even if I can understand why you say it. Fortunately I have some options in life, I could potentially borrow money from friends or family, sell stuff, even sell my body if need be (so there's 15 quid then ).

Bob

[1Gent]

Hello Still Waving,

Many thanks for the input, this was the main reason I ignored this letter out of hand, my assumption being that they would either offer a measly amount off or just plug for the full amount still.

Bob

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Di, With respect I can't completely agree with your statement 'sadly that's not something that's within your control' even if I can understand why you say it. Fortunately I have some options in life, I could potentially borrow money from friends or family, sell stuff . . .

My point was that you have no control over the debt purchaser's decision making.

The only certainty is that an offer of 100% of the amount they are chasing would be accepted.

Anything less would not prevent them deciding to issue a claim against you.

My suggestion to send a s 77-79 CCA Request was to see if they can comply with it.

If they can't then you may have improved your bargaining position (if you want to settle the debt) while at the same time protecting your legal position if they were to issue a claim.

Dealing with creditors and debt purchasers is about tactics.

Di

[1Gent]

Many thanks for clarifying what you meant Di.

I have read much on this forum and others about the benefits of doing CCA requests, but no differing views, sorry if this makes me a pessimist (which I am naturally unfortunately) but are there any downsides? Or a better way of putting it is what are the worst possible scenarios to doing a CCA request?

And to go back to where I started on my fist post for a moment, does anyone know for sure (from personal experience or otherwise) if this discounted offer received from PRA (second letter I uploaded) is definitely a tactic to provoke contact or whether there is any chance that this discounted total would actually be accepted as a F&F offer?

I realise it probably goes against the grain of everything everyone believes on here but currently if I could guarantee a payment of 7K would be accepted and 100% clear it I’d snap their hand off, even if I don’t think they are entitled to the debts they chase.

Thanks
Bob

[Warwick65]

Hi
Just to try and put your mind at rest

Originally, I had so much debt I was considering the ultimate solution ( I jest you not) and after that I was considering bankruptcy. I had been in a DMP for a few years and had paid a lot back (over 10K) but still had well over 40 to go when my job vanished.

I went around the forums and found my way here- I sent CCA requests to all my creditors. I now know I had actually received a letter before action on one of the debts so a court claim was imminent. The CCA request stopped that dead i its tracks and in fact they came back saying they couldn't find the agreement and the account was now closed.

Out of the 40K about 15 came back with either no agreement or irredeemably UE. the rest came back with what on the surface looked like good agreement . This was in mid 2012 . Since then a few chased me, some vigorously and some less so. In 2016 I received a letter before action from Lowell for a Capital One card of 5K , I sent a standard reply and got some but not all of the documents so I ignored any other missives. Then I came home one day to find a county court claim -eek . I sent out an SOS and Di rode to my rescue. Finally it came to court and not only did we win - so Lowell got nothing - they also had to pay my costs

What I am trying to say is I have had quite a bit of experience and not one negative bit from sending a CCA request. For me there is no downside

During that time I received many letters offering me discounts all of which I ignored but it is my firm belief many of these letters are to try and get you to engage with them. If you read both they use the words may and could , nothing that is binding.

Now of course you could write to them a very carefully worded letter ( I think there might be templates on here somewhere) saying something along the lines of
While I dispute any liability to you and do not believe the account is valid I am prepared to make an offer of £1000 in full and final settlement etc etc

The only problem I can see with that is if it ever came to court a judge might reasonably ask why you were making a significant offer if you didn't owe it. That might be arguable if the debt was £500 and you were offering £50

I know you say you have been on many a forum, so have I and in my personal experience I would not trust anyone on any other forum to help me deal with my debts.
On MSE I would be told to cancel my mobile subscription and make regular payments
On Cag- well most, including the prolific posters know nothing (apart from 1)
On LB the site owner would tell you would be told to make an offer and pay up

Here I try to help you examine all your options and make the best decision

At the moment they believe they have an enforceable debt and will chase you for it , probably not give you much of a discount
If you send a CCA request and it comes back good- see above but at that value you could definitely get free initial legal advice and if they went to court with a winnable case , probably get a Tomlin order which is not a CCJ

If you send a CCA and comes back bad (or not at all) the power is with you - make an offer if you want , 10% to start maybe or ride it out

So as far as i can see there really is no downside to a CCA request - from there you have the knowledge to make a decision.

Di has a fair bit of experience (professionally) with PRA and maybe there are other faults with the agreement such as default notices and assignment issues