Is this the end?

[MrsD]

Re: Is this the end?

i'm starting to sound like Nick Clegg but again I'm with you Jen, has anything actually changed or have they just fudged it and left more or lless the way it was?

[jen_br]

Re: Is this the end?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH Sorry your nick clegg remark made me spit out my drink!

I think they are just defining it.. and personally i think this was done so its in the press.. and its on MSE and its advising against doing this... maybe its partially a scare tactic

[MrsD]

Re: Is this the end?

OMG, I'm with you again, I just read the MSE piece and I don't think its quite totally accurate, I still say if they haven't got the original agreement, and they don't know what was on it, how can they produce even a copy???? therefore its got to be unenforceable and they can tell whoever they want but it still can't stand in court or we have a civil war cos the banks are running the justice system.

[WicKeD]

Re: Is this the end?

or we have a civil war cos the banks are running the justice system.

I vote civil war :-cow ;Spank

[bobogosing]

Re: Is this the end?

Does this mean carry on as normal? I mean continue what we were doing? ;Hmm

[stevieb]

Re: Is this the end?

Does this mean carry on as normal? I mean continue what we were doing? ;Hmm

yes as far as I can tell, from a quick read, and from the comments above.

Im sure Niddy will be along to clarify it all anyway

[bobogosing]

Re: Is this the end?

Thanks stevieb! feel lost and lonely today.........where's everyone gone? But I suppose its good to be quiet cos that means no-one have any probs

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Is this the end?

My comments, copied from Moderator cPanel - dated Tues Oct 12th

I think, having read it that it does set clear guidelines HOWEVER what is interesting is that yet again it is geared to helping lenders avoid their responsibilities..... that said, it does clearly say that the recon must contain all elements of the original document so I guess they would have to prove that all the terms were on one side (the four corners) and signed by both the debtor and creditor with both sets of addresses on - now, we all know an application form fails this as there are no prescribed terms so basically when lenders send an application form this will always remain unenforceable as that does not constitute an agreement.

Similarly, it appears they can "make a statement advising they always done XYZ prior to acceptance" - but such statement, if taken to court, would require proof that the debtor did indeed agree to the original terms and sign the agreement thus executing it - so in layman, all recon's can be argued on individual merit.

The logical thing to do would be to start a database of agreements for month and year, so we can see for ourselves exactly what forms were issued by each lender, for instance we know that when virgin launched they used a quick application form with very little info requested, so these would always be unenforceable but as the terms were on the reverse in tiny font, the debtor could argue that they were never shown the terms (cos they signed the application at the front, not the back). So in this case, if MBNA now issued a lawful "RECONSTITUTED" agreement for the same type of product (and relied on it at court) our database would prove that they also issued THIS type of agreement so how can their statement to the court be 100% accurate..

So, my next move will be to post on legal beagles, cag and mse and try and create a database of agreements that would have been issued and file them online publicly for all to see, in month/year order.

I am not too concerned at the guidance at this stage..... but that may change! lol

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Is this the end?

Going on from my remarks above, nothing much has changed so you can all stop worrying, it appears to have laid down the gauntlet to the lender - basically reminding them (and us) what can and cannot be done. Basically, as Rizzle confirmed yesterday, nothing much has changed as a result of this guidance.

[bobogosing]

Re: Is this the end?

Going on from my remarks above, nothing much has changed so you can all stop worrying, it appears to have laid down the gauntlet to the lender - basically reminding them (and us) what can and cannot be done. Basically, as Rizzle confirmed yesterday, nothing much has changed as a result of this guidance.

;Hi1 Morning Niddy!

Thanks so much for putting my brain at rest. Been worrried these two days. I shall continue with the battle............! 2

[Riz]

Re: Is this the end?

In fact, there are some useful things in there.

For example, the OFT's opinion that a creditor should not try to mislead or conceal from a debtor that an agreement in enforceable when it is aware that not.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Is this the end?

In fact, there are some useful things in there.

For example, the OFT's opinion that a creditor should not try to mislead or conceal from a debtor that an agreement in enforceable when it is aware that not.

Hehe, how many times have we heard that old chestnut before - does it stop them? ;Hmm ;Hmm

I agree though, in all fairness it does set clearer boundaries for the layman, to understand what can and cannot be issued but still, the lenders will have their lawyers stripping the guidance down into small pieces that they can disect for manipulation - as always!

[Riz]

Re: Is this the end?

Hehe, how many times have we heard that old chestnut before - does it stop them? ;Hmm ;Hmm

No. ;30

But it does provide some useful ammo that can perhaps be quoted and that the creditor cannot deny.

For example you could state something along the lines of.....

[size=5]"As you as a creditor will be aware, the OFT has stipulated that......."

"Therefore, I require that you clarify your position on this point. Failure to do so, even by omission or lack of a response, will be regarded as an attempt to deliberately misrepresent or conceal the legal position regarding this matter."


They will still try to fudge it though......

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Is this the end?

Hmmm, cheers - useful words there. May have to create a new template for those creditors that do try and fudge it, using the new legislation..... yep, that's what i'll do later today!

Thanks, you inspired me lol...

[Riz]

Re: Is this the end?

Yep. Now this has gone from merely a consultation document to full guidance from the OFT, it will be interesting to see what use creditors try to make of it, or how they try to twist it.

You can expect a new round of letters I suspect...