Endeavour

[lookingforward]

Re: Endeavour

Did I ever show you this link?

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...ead.php?t=7698

Don't remember to be honest , interested in this part

Underwriters/Insurers still have some responsibility of when the policy was sold to the customer.
When they have Intermediaries/Advisers selling insurance products on their behalf, the policies are referred back to the Underwriters.

The Underwriters have a duty to check and make sure that the policy was sold correctly, and to ensure it suits Customer's requirements.

It is understood that Underwriters/Insurers do have a liability when Insurance products are sold, even if they were/are not present at the selling of the product.

The duties of the Underwriter include, evaluating an individual before issuing an Insurance policy.
It is a very important duty that an Insurance Underwriter must perform, must analyse the client's risk before issuing the policy, for example, such as Current Health Problems.

Underwriters/Insurers should analyse Insurance Applications determine whether they should be accepted or rejected.

Is that from a source I can quote in my letter to give it some credence ?

[lookingforward]

Re: Endeavour

WOW!!!!! that is fantastic!!! Good one!
There is definately something not right if they do not agree with this!

I shall have a gander for you, see what I can find x

Thx Di,

I was writing this in my head shortly before the alarm was due to go off this morning, luckily I managed to get most of it down on paper before I forgot haha.

[di30]

Re: Endeavour

An article here, rather long, but check in the part of "How PPI works" a few pages down.

This includes Insurers, Brokers, Lenders etc.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...L1ZLRV3d-1MXbg

I'm sure I save some information before about FSA info on insurers, it maybe on my docs on my older computer, if i can get it going, I will post it.

[di30]

Re: Endeavour

Did I ever show you this link?

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...ead.php?t=7698

[di30]

Re: Endeavour

WOW!!!!! that is fantastic!!! Good one!
There is definately something not right if they do not agree with this!

I shall have a gander for you, see what I can find x

[lookingforward]

Re: Endeavour

Thanks Di,
For the moment I'm focusing on Aviva, however I'll bear that info in mind if I have to go back to GE.

This is my 1st attempt at a response to the CEO @ aviva, I'll obviously fill in the xyz bits and spell check before sending and would appreciate any thoughts on it/where it can be improved etc.

Also re the FOS/FSA if you have anything official I can put in regarding their stance on chasing the underwriter direct as I can't find anything and it would help my case if I could.

Thx

Dear Mr xyz

I received a reply to my email to yourself dated xx/xx/xxxx by letter dated xx/xx/xxxx from XYZ, and thank you for expediting a response to my complaint which was previously un-forthcoming.

I must state however that I am absolutely astonished by the contents of the letter in which XYZ states in such a way to exonerate Aviva of it’s responsibilities in the matter that “ Aviva is not responsible for investigating the sale of your payment protection insurance (PPI) policy. This is because the policy was arranged and sold by Purple Loans on behalf of Endeavour Personal Finance (EPF). ”

Do you seriously expect me to believe that a multi-national company such as yourselves takes no responsibility for the conduct of it’s agents in the field, whether employed directly, or acting on your behalf by selling your policies ?

i. That Aviva would not wish to ensure that the policies being sold on their behalf are fit for purpose, it’s details, benefits and shortfalls are fully explained and are not entered into without co-ersion ?

ii. That Aviva, upon receipt of said policies do not have a responsibility themselves to ensure that they are fit for purpose ?

If this is truly what your company belives then it has to be said that is goes completely against the guidelines laid down by the FSA ?? to whom you are goverened/subscribe, who state that …………..


As I said stated in my original letter, I have been an Aviva pension customer for many years, and have always believed you to be a fair company akin to the portrait you paint in your advertising campaign. I hope my expectations are not about to be dashed and leave me with the same feeling I have for the banking institutions.

I hope that this matter can be resolved amicably without the need for a complaint to the FOS/FSA, but rest assured that if I have to complain to them I will have no hesitation in doing so.

[di30]

Re: Endeavour

...................or it can be six years from when it expired too.

For example:
If you still have a policy running, or you were sold any form of PPI within the past six years and it has expired, you could have grounds for a claim. You might be able to claim further back than six years on a policy that has ended, but you will need original paperwork as sellers are only obliged to keep records for six years.

[di30]

Re: Endeavour

I assume it would be the underwriter of the loan who would have the paperwork of any commission paid to the broker.
So this is possibly a copy of the finance agreement, or any other forms completed by them at the time, or possibly when the loan was not formally completed it went to the underwriter first before the loan was agreed, as they check the application for the lender before they agree to pay out.

I have always gone by from 6 years since the product was sold, and I'm certain this is also said on the FOS website, ;-)

[lookingforward]

Re: Endeavour

Trying to get my head around the rules regarding commission payments as that seems the only way to ressurect the issue with GE (Purple Loans).

When the loancheck sol's decided to drop the case this is what they wrote regarding commission:

We have been able to ascertain that a commission of £3330.00 was paid to Mid & Gen Direct Ltd in circumstances of which you may not have been aware. However in order to be successful in a claim for undisclosed commissions you must be able to show that there was a fiduciary relationship (i.e. a relationship whereby they would act in your best interests) between you and Mid & Gen. I do not consider the evidence available will be sufficient to prove a fiduciary releationship. In addition no fee was paid by you to them and case law suggests that in these circumstances there can be no complaint if Mid & Gen were to be paid by other means (i.e. by the commission received from Endeavour).

In any event, even if a fiduciary relationship could be established you would also need to show that the receipt of commission by Mid & Gen caused the duities owed to you under the relationship to be breached resulting in your loss. Whilst we would argue that Mid & Gen had an incentive to place your business with Endeavour and that this caused you loss because the interest rate and terms and conditions to the loan may have been less favourable to a loan which you could have obtained via another lender. This of course is dependent on us being able to show that that was the case, and on the papers that I have before me I cannot see that we can do so.

So it seems the commission aspect isn't a goer if that above is to be believed, unless anyone knows any better ?

That being the case I don't see much more to be gained from GE (Purple) or Endeavour as they are both digging their heels in with their respective stances of time barred and "nothing to do with us guv" respectively.

Therefore I only have the insurer avenue i.e. Aviva so need to sort out some sort of meaningful response to their reply to me stating they have nothing to do with it, go to Purple.

I don't want to be going round in circles forever. It really does seem Purple were who the solicitor should have been going for but they wasted all their efforts on Endeavour.

They did state in their closing that they believe that in matters of this sort there is what is known as a limitation date, which means that if you do not commence court proceedings before a certain time (usually 6 years from the date of the loan agreement) then you will be statute barred from doing so. However there is also a provision to allow this 6 years to run from "when you did or could with reasonable diligence discover the "fraud", concealment or mistake" and it is our belief that this should apply to allow the 6 year period to run from the date that this firm was provided these details in this matter by LoanCheck i.e. June 2008, and so the limitation date would not expire until June 2014.

What they forget though (even though they were aware) was that I tried to claim back myself (and got no-where , hence LoanCheck becoming involved) in Sept 2007 firstly to Endeavour and then when they said "it's the broker to blame" to Purple in Oct 2007.

Now when I emailed GE for the final time I quoted

* Within six years of the product being sold to you
or
* Within three years of when you could have reasonably have been expected to know that there was a problem

Which I got from here I think, but if the Solicitors are to be believed then there is a 6 year rule would still leave me some time.

I could really do with some advice as to which rule is correct.

[di30]

Re: Endeavour

I'll have a sit down later and try and put something together, if it's OK with you, I'll run it past you first if that's OK ?

Thx Di

Yes of course, I am back and forth, so not a problem. Your welcome.

[di30]

Re: Endeavour

Hi Di,
Under the solicitors instructions I only SAR'd Endeavour, not Purple.

Is it worth it now bearing in mind they have stated it's time barred ?

I did complain again after the time barred letter and in the response they stated that they would be happy to consider my case further if I provided them with any new evidence.

So I suppose the points are
i. Would a SAR to Purple show any commision payments or would that be hidden away somewhere not available
ii. Would a paid commision from Endeavour to Purple for the business give me any leaway on the PPI element in any case as surely the commision would be for giving Endeavour the loan business not the PPI ?

I'm not sure where the solicitors found out about this anyway as I can't see any reference to it in the Endeavour SAR info.

I do have a copy of the GE rejection letter but I don't see what can be done with them at the moment as they've made their position quite clear.

Hiya

It's up to you if you would like to chance paying a tenner to Purple loans, what year did you settle the account? (It's a chance to take but that is up to you, however, if they're unable to provide you anything, they must return your SAR fee).

I cannot be certain what information of the ppi they will disclose to be honest. (From EPF to Purple). However, my broker Click Finance who brokered my loan for EPF, I did received part paperwork tucked in the SAR of commission paid to the broker, what was due etc. My loan was 2004 and settled early in 2005.

MY GE account was opened in the 90's and it was only just before Xmas of this year I dealt with it, even though Santander who dealt with GE complaints rejected it as the account was too old and they say they didnt hold much information, this was the reason why I complained to their underwriter/insurer and succeeded. I send them information that I did hold, it was not a great amount either, but still enough for them to agree to pay out. Insurer back then for this account was Genworth Insurance, although they may have varied depending on what account it was for really, ours was Currys store.

[lookingforward]

Re: Endeavour

.................to add, I can try putting a letter together.
The FOS would also suggest the insurer/underwriter avenue, if they didnt think they had any part then surely the FOS wouldnt even recommend this direction.

They certainly do have part liabilities, due to the relationship to the business that sold you the PPI.

I would be writing back by saying something in the lines of, that you feel they have overlooked and/or misunderstood your complaint...........and we can take it from there, by confirming why they do have joint liabilities etc...

I'll have a sit down later and try and put something together, if it's OK with you, I'll run it past you first if that's OK ?

Thx Di

[lookingforward]

Re: Endeavour

Oh right, shame you dont have any other info to push for the commission. I take it your tried requesting for information from Purple loans as well (Midland & General)?

I didnt write a follow up letter, as I succeeded with mine, although I would have probably wrote a further one if I had to.

Will see what I can do.

Do you have a full copy of the letter of the rejection, so i can work on?

Hi Di,
Under the solicitors instructions I only SAR'd Endeavour, not Purple.

Is it worth it now bearing in mind they have stated it's time barred ?

I did complain again after the time barred letter and in the response they stated that they would be happy to consider my case further if I provided them with any new evidence.

So I suppose the points are
i. Would a SAR to Purple show any commision payments or would that be hidden away somewhere not available
ii. Would a paid commision from Endeavour to Purple for the business give me any leaway on the PPI element in any case as surely the commision would be for giving Endeavour the loan business not the PPI ?

I'm not sure where the solicitors found out about this anyway as I can't see any reference to it in the Endeavour SAR info.

I do have a copy of the GE rejection letter but I don't see what can be done with them at the moment as they've made their position quite clear.

[di30]

Re: Endeavour

.................to add, I can try putting a letter together.
The FOS would also suggest the insurer/underwriter avenue, if they didnt think they had any part then surely the FOS wouldnt even recommend this direction.

They certainly do have part liabilities, due to the relationship to the business that sold you the PPI.

I would be writing back by saying something in the lines of, that you feel they have overlooked and/or misunderstood your complaint...........and we can take it from there, by confirming why they do have joint liabilities etc...

[di30]

Re: Endeavour

Hi Di,
The only commission the solicitors told me about was £3330.00 that was paid to Midland & General (Purple Loans) and they didn't feel there was enough evidence to prove this was a problem to me in regards to the loan.

Yes you kindly sent me your letter which I used with a bit of tinkering to suit, assuming you've just got the one and haven't got a newer version ?

Oh right, shame you dont have any other info to push for the commission. I take it your tried requesting for information from Purple loans as well (Midland & General)?

I didnt write a follow up letter, as I succeeded with mine, although I would have probably wrote a further one if I had to.

Will see what I can do.

Do you have a full copy of the letter of the rejection, so i can work on?