Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

[Ju2908]

Re: Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

many thanks. really appreciate the help. Will help Mum compose her letter. Good luck with your case and let us know the outcome.

[panther12]

Re: Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

The Fob Off Service - what a joke!

your complaint about National Westminster Bank Plc (“NatWest”)

Thank you for contacting the Financial Ombudsman Service. We look into a wide range of
complaints about banks, insurance companies and financial businesses. But sometimes
there are limits on where we can help. NatWest has told us that they don’t believe we can
look at your complaint about your packaged bank account.

I’ve now looked at the information that both you and NatWest have provided us, to see if
we can take your complaint forward. Unfortunately, based on this information, this
complaint doesn’t appear to be one we can look into.

why we’re not able to take your complaint further

NatWest has said that your complaint was made too late – as it was outside the time limits
set by the financial services regulator. So, I’ve looked at whether they’re right about the
time limits. In your case, that means looking at whether your complaint was made within six
years of the date of the event you are complaining about – this being the sale of your
Advantage Gold account in September 2004. Or, if it gives you more time, within three
years of when you should reasonably have been aware of the problem.

I understand from what you’ve told us that:
 you were told the packaged account was necessary to obtain an overdraft facility
 you felt pressured to open the account as needed the overdraft at the time
 you were not offered a fee-free alternative account
 at no point were the benefits of such an account properly explained to you, other
than it included free insurances
 there was no detailed assessment as to the benefits, but you were told you would
save on all the account benefits
 the costs of the account far outweighed any benefits
 the travel insurance was totally unsuitable
 you were not told about the increase in fees and they were taken without notice
 you are not aware of receiving any review letter from NatWest
 you only became aware of your right to complain about the mis-selling of your
packaged account in April 2015, following a call about PPI complaints.

From your account records, I can see you opened an Advantage Gold packaged account
on 16 September 2004. On 15 July 2015 this account was renamed a Select Platinum
account. You downgraded to a fee-free Select account on 11 August 2015 and still hold
this account.

The sale of your Advantage Gold account in September 2004 occurred more than six years
before you first made your complaint in April 2015. I also think you should reasonably have
known you had a reason to complain more than three years before you did – so
unfortunately this complaint about your packaged account falls outside the three year time
limit as well.

This is because NatWest has provided us with an audit trail to show that they sent you a
“Refresher Pack” on 29 July 2009 – which is more than three years before you first
complained to NatWest. Their records show the address they held on file for you at the
time was

The Refresher Pack included a summary of the account benefits provided by the
Advantage Gold account, as well as the cost of the account. The Pack also invited you to
contact NatWest if you wanted an account review. The terms and conditions of the benefits
were also set out in detail in the accompanying leaflet. Because your complaint includes
that the benefits weren’t properly explained to you, the travel insurance was totally
unsuitable, the costs of the account far outweighed the benefit to you and the account fees
have increased without your permission, I believe you ought to have realised there may be
a problem with the sale of your Advantage Gold account when you received this Refresher
Pack.

NatWest has also shown us that they sent you a Refresher Pack on 31 March 2010.
Similar to the Refresher Pack in 2009, this included a summary of the benefits, the costs of
the account and asked you to contact them if you would like an account review. Again, the
terms and conditions of the benefits were set out in detail in the accompanying leaflet.

I appreciate you’ve said that you were not aware of receiving any review letter; but having
looked at your account records, I haven’t seen anything to suggest either of these
Refresher Packs, or other correspondence or statements, were sent to the wrong address
or returned as undelivered. Therefore, I’m satisfied that these Refresher Packs were most
likely sent to you in 2009 and 2010. And while I accept it’s possible that you may not have
received one of these Packs, given there is no history of correspondence from NatWest to
you being returned as undelivered, I’m satisfied it’s more likely you received at least one of
these Refresher Packs.

I understand you’ve told us that, in the mailings in your possession, you find no mention or
reference to mis-selling or your rights to make a complaint, and that the three year time
limit can’t start until such time you become aware of this. But, having reviewed these
Refresher Packs, we’re satisfied that they clearly explained all the benefits included with
your Advantage Gold account, the costs of the account as well as the terms and conditions
– including relevant exclusions – of those benefits.

I acknowledge the Pack wouldn’t have told you whether you had suffered a loss or had
been mis-sold the Advantage Gold account. But, the information provided within them
would’ve given you enough information for you to decide whether you felt the account was
right for you. Having considered what you’ve told us, I feel it’s reasonable to say that on
receiving a Refresher Pack you would reasonably have become aware you may have
cause for complaint. And, while I accept the Packs didn’t advise you of your rights to make
a complaint, we feel generally people know they can complain when they feel something
has gone wrong.

The rules do, however, allow us to look at a complaint made outside the time limits where a
delay in complaining was due to exceptional circumstances. You’ve told us you only
became aware of a right to complain about the mis-selling of your packaged account in
April 2015, following a call about PPI complaints. I’ve considered what you’ve said carefully
but, unfortunately, I don’t think this means we can take your complaint forward.

I say this because, when deciding whether we can take your complaint forward, I have to
look at whether your complaint could still have been made before the end of the three year
period. Unfortunately, I still feel that your complaint could have been made in time. And
while I understand you’ve said you weren’t told until April 2015 about the packaged bank
accounts potentially being mis-sold – and your right to make a complaint about the sale –
we feel generally people know they can complain when they feel something has gone
wrong with a sale.

If there’s anything else you think we need to know about why your complaint was made
outside of these time limits, please let us know by 4 March 2016. We’ll then look at things
again taking into account what you tell us – but unless you have any new information it’s
unlikely we’ll change our view.

I’m sorry we can’t help you any more with this complaint.

[panther12]

Re: Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

I don't expect anything will change but I've asked the adjudicator to look again at the decision. If I still get the brush off can I request the matter be put before an Ombudsman, although I expect they all piss in the same pot but hey ho - nothing ventured nothing gained.

[PlanB]

Re: Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

I've asked the adjudicator to look again at the decision. If I still get the brush off can I request the matter be put before an Ombudsman.

Go all the way to the Ombudsman.

The Adjudicator's decision is perverse and, in my personal view, biased in favour of NatWest who he chose to favour.

He says that because the bank sent you a "Refresher Pack" in the post you should have instantly known that the product was not suitable.

What a load on baloney. Most customers don't find out until they try to make a claim.

Were you asked to read and sign the "Refresher Pack" to say you understood and accepted the gobbledygook it contained? Of course you weren't. I bank with NatWest with a packaged account and the information they send is woefully inadequate.

In fact only yesterday they sent me a new booklet pointing out all the exclusions. It's basically a list of 101 reasons why this product isn't right for me. I expect they only did this because it's become blatantly obvious that the content of their "Refresher Packs" were misleading due to lack of pominence of the negative yet vital stuff.

Keep going and don't let this biased individual stand in your way!

Plan B x

[panther12]

Re: Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

I gave some additional info and asked adjudicator to look at his decision again but not heard a peep since. Have sent a reminder email asking if he has had chance to view my previous email or to give a rough timescale when I'm likely to hear from them. Will definitely push it to Ombudsman once I finally get this joke of an adjudicator out the way.

[panther12]

Re: Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

Once again the adjudicator missed a lot of key points but it's now going to an Ombudsman.

your complaint about National Westminster Bank Plc (“NatWest”)

Thank you for your email dated 1 March 2016 in response to my view of your complaint,
which I sent to you on 19 February 2016. I tried to call to speak to you about your
complaint but unfortunately you were unavailable, so please accept my apologies for the
delay in getting back to you.

I’m sorry that you are unhappy with my view. I understand from your response that:

 you feel the Refresher Packs wouldn’t have told you whether you had suffered a
loss or had been mis-sold the Advantage Gold account. Nor would they have told
you of your rights to make a complaint. So you feel the three year time limit for
making a complaint cannot start until you are made aware of this
 your complaint is not about the actual contents provided by the Advantage Gold
account, but that you were forced to take this packaged account when you knew
you wouldn’t have been able to benefit from the contents provided by it.
 you were told you would save on all the benefits the account offered, but they
weren’t explained to you.

I’ve considered carefully the information you’ve provided but unfortunately this does not
change my opinion.

You told me the Refresher Pack didn’t tell you whether you had suffered a loss, whether
you were mis-sold the account, or of your rights to make a complaint – and the three year
part of the time limit cannot start until you are made aware of this. But there is no
requirement for a business (in case, NatWest) to have explicitly made you aware of this for
the time limits for making a complaint to begin. The rules which apply to this complaint say
we can’t consider a complaint made more than six years after the event complained of, or if
later, more than three years after you were aware, or ought reasonably to have been
aware, of cause for complaint.

The sale of your Advantage Gold account in September 2004 occurred more than six years
before you first made your complaint, in April 2015 – meaning your complaint is outside of
the first part of the time limit rule. For the second part of the time limit rule (the three year
rule) I’ve then considered whether you knew, or ought reasonably to have known, that you
had cause to complain. In doing this, I’ve looked at what was included in the Refresher
Pack – which was sent to you in July 2009 (and a second pack in March 2010) – to see if
I think this would have reasonably made you aware you had a reason to complain about
the sale of your account.

You’ve said you were told during the sale you would save on all the benefits the account
offered, but they weren’t explained to you. In your original complaint to us you also said
you held duplicate cover and the costs of the account far outweighed the benefits.

The Refresher Pack explained that you held an Advantage Gold account which included a
number of benefits. The cover letter then encouraged you to read the enclosed pack which
included a list of the benefits and the annual cost of the account – and check if these
benefits still met your needs. The Pack also invited you to contact NatWest if you would
like an account review.

Because of this, I think you ought to have been made aware of some of your reasons for
complaining when you received this Refresher Pack. I acknowledge that you feel you had
to have the Advantage Gold account in order to obtain a loan and overdraft but, looking at
everything you’ve told us, these complaint points are in addition to you feeling the benefits
weren’t explained and the costs of the account outweighed the benefits for you. As you first
made your complaint in April 2015 it was made outside the three year time limit.

I appreciate this will be a disappointment to you but, from the information I’ve seen, I’m
unable to change my view about your complaint.

an ombudsman will now review this complaint

Because you did not agree with my view, an ombudsman will review your complaint and
make a decision. If the ombudsman’s conclusions are different to mine, they will explain
why and let you reply before they give you their decision.

We should already have all the information the ombudsman needs to reach a decision. But
if we need anything more from you, we will let you know.

what you need to do now

If you have any further points or information you want the ombudsman to consider, please
send these to me by 25 March 2016.

If you need more time to reply, please let me know before this date. If I do not hear from
you, I will assume you do not want to add anything.

We will keep you up to date with our progress – but please get in touch if you have any
questions in the meantime.

[PlanB]

Re: Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

Once again the adjudicator missed a lot of key points but it's now going to an Ombudsman.

That Adjudicator is so annoying!

He's convinced himself (or rather NatWest have convinced him) that you should have twigged the product was inappropriate when you were sent a Refresher Pack in the post. That's what he's basing his time-barred argument on.

The Adjudicator's thinking is muddled on the issue of you taking the responsibility for deciding whether to continue with the packaged account and not NatWest's responsibility to make sure it was appropriate for you in the first place.

I'm dealing with a tumble dryer recall at the moment because the manufacturer has only just admitted that it may burst into flames due to a fault (houses have burned down as a result) where fluff can get into the heat exchanger. There was nothing in the sales blurb that told me to be aware the item might be a lethal fire bomb in my kitchen at some point in the future.

That Adjudicator's argument is like saying you can't sue a pharmaceutical company if you have an adverse effect (or even die) from taking a drug which they manufacture simply because they referred to possible side-effects on a leaflet inside the box, which is the last thing you're going to read and digest when you're ill or in pain.

In fact the analogy goes on, which is if you don't take the drug you will suffer from the illness. It's Hobson's Choice. Ditto with your packaged account where the bank made it clear that you couldn't have the banking facilities you needed at the price you needed to pay (overdraft interest rate?) unless you swallowed their bitter pill (monthly account fee).

I do hope the Ombudsman will have more common sense than his underling. Otherwise all banks can use 'small print' (sent post-sale) as a disclaimer for their mis-selling misdemeanours.

Plan B x

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

Otherwise all banks can use 'small print' (sent post-sale) as a disclaimer for their mis-selling misdemeanours.

Sadly, this is what will occur.

The FOS may as well be called 'The Bank'.....

[panther12]

Re: Natwest Adv Gold mis-sold packaged account - Dismissed as out of time!

Sadly, this is what will occur.

The FOS may as well be called 'The Bank'.....

You're not wrong there NiD. Only a couple weeks after the adjudicators decision we now have the final nail in the coffin from the so-called independent Ombudsman. An almost mirror image of the adjudicators - so much for impartiality. If it were down to me I would push this to court and feel we have the relevant case law to make a good fight of it, however I was doing this on behalf of my brother who emigrated to Oz a few years ago so will have to leave it at that. He's decided that when he sells his UK home he's going to max out his Twatwest cards & overdraft and fuck em! He's no intention of moving back here again so can't say as I blame him.