Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

[Tuttsi]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

Mr T has discovered on his bank account that he pays a fee each month and it covers insurance much the same as Sentinal it is with Axa I believe. It is packaged account and the fees includes this insurance. I have told him firstly to get a copy of the insurance document as if it is for PPI then him being self employed he may be able to get back those premiums. If it is card security which I believe it may well be then is this something that can also be claimed back?

[Bill-K]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

My reading of their letter is that they don't want you to claim until the Scheme gets voted in, and their timescale is geared to the sad majority of peeps who will simply do what they are told to do. The Scheme does not exist as yet - so we have every right to claim from AI. Sure - you can claim directly from the lender right now - but I doubt if you will be cutting any of the cr@p, Tuttsi. They will issue as much cr@p as they possibly can to make it difficult for you - and you know this, already. If you don't elicit as much information from AI as you can at this stage - when they are hoping you will take the bag of sweeties and run - then IMHO you could be slamming the door in your own face.

Once you have the info from AI - then you can cut the cr@p, I reckon. But as I have said - this is uncharted territory - so I am only voicing my own opinion based on the little experience I have so far. It would be interesting to see if a direct claim from the lender for everything that you are (supposedly) entitled to will work - but my own reading of history is that it won't. All I can do is say what I have learned, and I'm in no position to dictate to anybody how they progress a claim. So do please know that I would back you as fully as I can - because we are all here as a team trying to find the best ways through the jungle.

[Tuttsi]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

I believe the letter says that you have to wait to make that claim as it has to follow 7 steps including voting and court. I do not see that they would be willing to pay out before that happens unless I am reading that wrongly. That letter was just the initial letter and there will be more to come over the next few months. I thought I could cut the crap and go direct to MasterCard for the lot if that is possible..... what do you think Bill?

Well done for keeping your records, Tuttsi (as if I ever doubted that !!!)

My own feeling is to send AI your claim ASAP as it gets the claim in to them to before the 'Scheme' restricts their liability - and as you say, it gets you at the front of the queue. Even if they do succeed in fobbing you off with only the post-2004 premiums, you have got the claim in early - and you then have the admission of mis-selling. It looks like you won't need to get back to AI for the further premium details, but I would still go ahead and do that - for the price of a stamp.

Meanwhile, you can then claim the earlier premiums plus the account interest from your MasterCard lender, and see how that progresses.

[Bill-K]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

Well done for keeping your records, Tuttsi (as if I ever doubted that !!!)

My own feeling is to send AI your claim ASAP as it gets the claim in to them to before the 'Scheme' restricts their liability - and as you say, it gets you at the front of the queue. Even if they do succeed in fobbing you off with only the post-2004 premiums, you have got the claim in early - and you then have the admission of mis-selling. It looks like you won't need to get back to AI for the further premium details, but I would still go ahead and do that - for the price of a stamp.

Meanwhile, you can then claim the earlier premiums plus the account interest from your MasterCard lender, and see how that progresses.

[Tuttsi]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

Bill, I should have my statements going back to inception of when the Sentinal Gold first started, the earlier years are in storage but that will be retrieved. They take every November currently £35 and prior to 2008 it seems that it was £29. So once I have the full picture I will plan my refund request.

With A1thist won't materialise into refunds until September/October 15 the earliest if I am lucky, I was hoping to just jump the queue and get in quickly. Mastercard took the money from my account and they should be responsible for paying me back with compounded interest with your help with your nice Compounded interest spread sheets.

[Bill-K]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

This (posted above) is the introductory letter from AI which outlines the plans for the 'Scheme of Arrangement.' Firstly bear in mind that this is not an admission of mis-selling - although it would be difficult for them to deny mis-selling now, I'm sure. If you have one of these letters, then AI have it on record that you purchased a policy from them at some point - so you are eligible to vote on the proposed Scheme. From what I can see in the letter, it looks likely that it will once again ignore the account interest charged by the lenders, and simply refund claimants their premiums plus 8% simple interest. In many - probably most - cases, this will be a fraction of what the claimant has been deprived of.

This is new territory for me, because it is not covered by the FCA's PPI Redress rules - so I believe that new ground is being broken here. I have only worked on two CPP claims so far, and in both cases the claimants did not have their statements, so we decided to wait and see what CPP came up with. They duly refunded the premiums plus 8% simple interest, and pointed out that premiums paid before 14/01/05 were not covered by the Scheme, so the refunds only went back to then. We then wrote asking them for details of all other premiums paid, and they sent us a list of them with amounts & dates. This was very useful, because I doubt if we could have got this info by sending DSAR's, as it was before 2005. Armed with this, I was able to estimate what the total amount was that they had been 'out of pocket' by - and it was much more than they had been offered - because the lenders had been charging increasing amounts of monthly interest on the premiums that were accumulating over the years, and none of this had been offered in recompense at all.

If we assume that £25 was being charged each January by the lenders, then the card balance would contain £25 more than it would have done if CPP hadn't been mis-sold. Account interest was charged on this - not at 8% simple, but at something like 29.9% compound interest - or more. Throughout year 1, this interest was charged every month, and the amount it was being charged on also 'snowballed' as the year went by. In the following January a further £25 was added to this 'pot,' so the original £25 had now doubled - but the 'pot' also included the accumulated interest that had been charged over the year, so it was probably around £58 by now. Keep this snowball rolling for 20-odd years, and it gets BIG.

Now, what you would probably be offered on this by AI would be around £300 in premiums, plus around £120 in 8% simple interest - totalling £420.

But if you factor in the premiums paid before 2005 - and the account interest that the lender has kept for themselves over all this time, then we are looking at a much bigger figger. Assuming that your premiums were all £25 pa., that your monthly balance was £1000, and that your APR was 29.9%, then your redress by the end of April could be over £5,000 !!!

The £25 premiums plus 8% simple interest are just a 'bag of sweeties' to make us all go away happy - and this has the apparent blessing of our hallowed regulators, the FCA !!!

Now, from what I can make out, the lenders are 'volunteering' to pay the pre-2005 premiums plus 8% simple interest - because they know this is also peanuts. The battle ahead is in getting them (and the FCA) to admit that they should refund that account interest. I believe they think they have gotten away with this, but I don't intend to let them if I can help it.

As regards 'strategy' - at this stage, I think there is much to be said for the 'softlee softlee, catchee monkey' approach, and my suggestion would be to send your claim to AI initially - and don't mention the account interest - just the 8% simple. I think they might be happy to send you your premiums going back to 2005, and hope they have fobbed you off with that. What you then have is their implied admission of mis-selling, and you can then ask them for details of the earlier premiums, which they will probably remind you that they cannot pay - but will hopefully send you a list of them, anyway.

You then have the mis-selling admission, plus the list of all premiums paid - and can then send a claim to the lender for the earlier premiums, the associated account interest, and 8% simple interest on all that. The lender will then probably try and fob you off with the pre-2005 premiums plus 8%, and studiously ignore the account interest. But by that time, they will have nothing left to stand on when you reclaim the account interest - although I suspect they may well issue their 'final response,' and leave you to claim through the FOS. But the difficulty that they may have with that is that the associated account interest has always been considered as reclaimable for as long as I can remember - so it is at the very least regarded as 'custom and practice' - and I can't see how they can wriggle out of that.

[Bill-K]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

Thanks for sending the scans, Tuttsi - duly received. I'll anonymise them & re-order the pages sequentially - then post it up here. I haven't taken a close look yet, but I'm expecting it to be the same as the earlier CPP Scheme - in which case I will be recommending that people vote NO to this new Scheme.

EDIT: Probably due to file size restrictions, I have had to split the document into 4 pairs of pages - but here they are:-

[Tuttsi]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

Bill I have emailed you the letter from A1 Scheme to your Gmail account. Let me know once you have it. It would be good to make a test case of trying it out with your CPP + 8% interest, after all I have had money taken from me which was illegal for them to do so.

Hi Tuttsi, and I hope you and Mr-T are both well these days. I've been a bit busy in the 'back-room' with the dodgy MBNA PPI calcs & CPP stuff, but have started a few threads here in AAD now, as I believe it needs to be brought into the open now. This new AI 'Scheme' seems similar to the earlier CPP Ltd one, and if so - then if it is voted in, it will exclude any claims prior to Jan. 2004 - and it will completely ignore CPP-Associated Account Interest. I think you may know that this account interest is likely to be worth a lot more than the basic CPP premiums plus 8% simple interest.

I have not seen any details of the 'Scheme' as yet (and I would dearly love someone to post them here or send me them) - but my own feeling is that sending in a claim to the lender before the 'Scheme' gets voted in (as I suspect it will) is well worth considering. If you have all your data (statements, etc.) then you are 'tooled-up,' I believe. However - if you don't have this, then you may need to send a DSAR first - but of course it is only likely to cover the last 6 years.

What I found with the earlier CPP claims was that you may be able to get AI/Sentinel to send you details of all the pre-2004 premiums (CPP Ltd did) - even though they may not refund them - and this could be gold-dust. So it may be worth considering claiming from AI initially - and then claiming from the lenders. But doing it all before the 'Scheme' gets under way is deffo the way to go, IMO.

[Bill-K]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

Hi Tuttsi, and I hope you and Mr-T are both well these days. I've been a bit busy in the 'back-room' with the dodgy MBNA PPI calcs & CPP stuff, but have started a few threads here in AAD now, as I believe it needs to be brought into the open now. This new AI 'Scheme' seems similar to the earlier CPP Ltd one, and if so - then if it is voted in, it will exclude any claims prior to Jan. 2004 - and it will completely ignore CPP-Associated Account Interest. I think you may know that this account interest is likely to be worth a lot more than the basic CPP premiums plus 8% simple interest.

I have not seen any details of the 'Scheme' as yet (and I would dearly love someone to post them here or send me them) - but my own feeling is that sending in a claim to the lender before the 'Scheme' gets voted in (as I suspect it will) is well worth considering. If you have all your data (statements, etc.) then you are 'tooled-up,' I believe. However - if you don't have this, then you may need to send a DSAR first - but of course it is only likely to cover the last 6 years.

What I found with the earlier CPP claims was that you may be able to get AI/Sentinel to send you details of all the pre-2004 premiums (CPP Ltd did) - even though they may not refund them - and this could be gold-dust. So it may be worth considering claiming from AI initially - and then claiming from the lenders. But doing it all before the 'Scheme' gets under way is deffo the way to go, IMO.

[Tuttsi]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

I have just had a letter from A1 Scheme Limited yesterday (2 million letters were sent out) who advise that the Sentinel card security payments are illegal and there is a plan in place to go back 10 years and recover all payments made within this time + 8% interest. What is to stop me going directly to the credit card and asking for 20 years back+8% interest?

Nice to see you posting Bill x

Not forgetting Sentinel Card Protection, of course!
http://www.ftadviser.com/2015/01/27/...L/article.html

[Bill-K]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

Bill et al, for your information:
http://www.fca.org.uk/news/affinion-...roduct-holders

Thanks for that link, AC - very useful info. I would be interested to see details of the new 'Scheme,' as I suspect it will also completely ignore the aspect of CPP-associated account interest, and let the lenders off the hook - yet again.

Whilst developing a spreadsheet for calculating CPP redress, I have created an example case where the claimant has paid £25.00 CPP premiums per year, commencing 01/01/01, and with the final premium paid 01/01/14. That is a total of £350.00 in CPP premiums paid.

Under the 'Scheme,' they would have been refunded the final 10 of these premiums, as the first 4 were before 14/01/04 and are therefore not covered by the scheme. So they would have been refunded £250.00 in CPP premiums. To this, a further £112.38 would be added as 8% simple interest, making a total refund of £362.38 (as at 13/02/15.) From this, £22.48 income tax would be deducted, so the net offer would be £339.90.

What they were actually 'out of pocket' for was a total of £350.00 in CPP premiums, plus the associated account interest that they were charged on them, plus 8% simple interest on both the premiums and the associated account interest. If we take 29.9% as the annual account interest rate being charged, then (as at 13/02/15) this comes to £350.00 in CPP premiums, plus £2,385.68 in associated account interest, plus £936.19 in 8% simple interest - a total of £3,671.87. From this, £187.24 income tax would be deducted, so the net amount would be £3,484.63.

This is more than ten times the original 'Scheme' offer - and I believe that most peeps are being scammed out of this, because they don't know enough about this, and because the FCA are completely ignoring it as well.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

Indeed so, AC. I hadn't realised that they had now organised another (presumably similar) 'Scheme' with Sentinel - thanks for the link.


It was dodgy, wasn't it, SXGuy - and I believe it was deliberately tailored to be difficult to understand, so that the majority of CPP victims probably didn't return their claim forms. I reckon CPP got off lightly, and the lenders got away with it completely. Presumably, the same will also happen with Sentinel.

What I found worked for us was to send in the enquiry letter attached to post #3 above. CPP then responded (as attached below) with:-
1. An explanation of their calculation;
2. A list of all premiums paid - including those paid before 2005;
3. Confirmation of which lender collected the premiums.

This enabled us to contact the lender with all the data we needed to reclaim the earlier premiums, and the associated account interest on those premiums, and avoided the need to send a DSAR. It also meant that the lender was unable to pretend that they didn't have the data themselves.

Bill et al, for your information:
http://www.fca.org.uk/news/affinion-...roduct-holders

[Bill-K]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

...need to be careful with what C/C company due to UE but if it's one that I'm paying then I'll get cracking

Good point, LF. I think we can 'make enquiries' - but actually making a claim could re-start the UE clock, couldn't it ? I guess this needs to be considered carefully here.

[Bill-K]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

I'm afraid I lost my rag with CapOne at this point, and sent them the attached snotty riposte - despite their 'final response' attempt at avoiding the issue. They responded with the attached 'holding letter,' and we are now awaiting their 8-week response. I would very much like to receive summat on the lines of:

"OK - you got us fair and square, guv. If we give you a coupla million quid - will you keep it quiet ?"

But I guess I've buggared that idea up, now...

[lookingforward]

Re: Card Protection Policies (CPP) - We're STILL Being Scammed !!!

Hi LF - if your CPP was provided at any time after 13/01/05 by the insurer known as 'CPP Limited,' then you should have been sent preliminary information about the 'Scheme of Arrangement,' and eventually a claim form (as attached in post #3 above). However, if it was provided by any other insurer, then I believe you would need to reclaim it initially from the lender who collected the premiums, as the 'Scheme' only covered CPP that was actually covered by 'CPP Limited.'

From the link provided by AC earlier, it appears that the CPP insurers 'Sentinel' may eventually send out details of the proposed 'Scheme' - but I would advise peeps not to wait until then, and try and find out ASAP if they ever had CPP. If so, then they would need to know what premiums they paid, and when they paid them - along with who the CPP insurer was, and who collected the premiums. If you don't have these details, then it may be worth writing to CPP Limited, asking them why you weren't sent a claim form, as you did have CPP insurance. If you had only CPP from them prior to 14/01/05, then they may not have sent you any claim form or other details - but it would be worth asking them, I reckon.

Also maybe worth writing to other CPP providers such as Sentinel, etc. I don't think there were very many of them. If you have your statements, then look for any insurance premiums being charged - usually on an annual basis, and usually a regular amount (around £20 - 30.) CPP premiums were often given different names - so don't just look for 'CPP.' I believe some policies covered identity theft, and may have cost more. My pal Di30 here has a thread about reclaiming CPP so there may be some useful info here:-

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...reclaiming-CCP

Also - here are the CPP threads I have come across so far in AAD:-

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...ent-Protection

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...g-CPP-pre-2005

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...-CPP-Insurance

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s....php?11021-CPP

Thanks Bill,

I'll have a looksee what details I've got, need to be careful with what C/C company due to UE but if it's one that I'm paying then I'll get cracking