Purchased CCJ Debt and Wills/probate

[ohitsonlyme]

I have recently made a will and leave all to my Wife and Children.

However I have an issue with Cabot being in the background and making a claim for over £12k after my death.

5 or 6 years ago Cabot bought a very old Lloyds CCJ,they send me chase letters every month or so.

My wife or children would not be able to fend off any claim from Cabot, so I would like to put this to bed before I die.I totally ignore the letters and the original Lloyds CCJ is now over 12 years old.

I cant decide if to make some F&F offer or continue to ignore with instructions on how to handle the issue,any advice welcome

TIA Onlymeagain

[Still Waving]

Hi

My understanding is that under the Limitation Act 1980, a CCJ can only be enforced within 6 years of it being issued. A CCJ may be extended if it is about to expire and no payments have been made. However the creditor would need a strong case for the court as to why the debt wasn't recovered within the time. Was the CCJ extended?

Something to bear in mind - see this link. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/wills-a...estates-notice
(section Why Place a Deceased Estates Notice? and subsequent sections.)

Ideally you want Cabot to close their book on this account, as making a claim on the Estate is not enforcement action, so see here
https://www.handbook.fca.org.uk/handbook/CONC/7/15.html
"CONC 7.15.8 A firm must not continue to demand payment from a customer after the customer has stated that he will not be paying the debt because it is statute barred."

Perhaps a letter to Cabot pointing this out and asking them to confirm that no more requests for settlement will be made and the book has been closed?

Get a bit of free legal advice first.

[Night Monkey]

I would also think about keeping a note with the will explaining the situation, to avoid Cabot presenting a claim to the estate that looks legitimate and is then paid out almost as an administrative task.

The advice when my parents died was 'collect all the assets, pay any outstanding debts and split the remainder between their children' - unless there is some awareness of the history I can imagine an executor simply paying the bill as presented.

[Still Waving]

I would also think about keeping a note with the will explaining the situation, to avoid Cabot presenting a claim to the estate that looks legitimate and is then paid out almost as an administrative task.

The advice when my parents died was 'collect all the assets, pay any outstanding debts and split the remainder between their children' - unless there is some awareness of the history I can imagine an executor simply paying the bill as presented.

That was my thinking, but a lot may depend on who the executor is. It's just possible that if a solicitor is the executor, they would pay up, notwithstanding a note to the contrary, so as not to lay themselves open to a claim from the creditor. (Although a debt may be SB, it still exists.)

There is something known as "Devastavit" (essentially failure to properly administer the Estate), which personal representatives need to be aware of. Here is where proper legal advice is necessary.

https://radcliffechambers.com/wp-con...s-Feb-2022.pdf

[Still Waving]

I've just looked out a thread I raised on this subject in 2021. You will see a couple of posts from Gerry Jemitus of Joanna Connolly Solicitors. It may be of interest.

https://all-about-debt.co.uk/forum/d...ng-with-estate

[Night Monkey]

Although a debt may be SB, it still exists.

A very good point. And just thinking aloud, would a statute barred debt not pursued during life become a different debt after death, being a 'valid' one that wasn't paid from the estate and therefore possibly subject to court action?

[Night Monkey]

It may be of interest.

It certainly was, thank you. I'm not entirely sure that the thread ultimately came to a conclusion though and advised that an executor covered themselves by advertising in the local Gazette, without clarifying the status of a debt post mortem.

What conclusion did you come to? I was in exactly the same situation at the time and strangely enough revisited our wills last week so am wondering whether I need to take any further action.

[Still Waving]

It certainly was, thank you. I'm not entirely sure that the thread ultimately came to a conclusion though and advised that an executor covered themselves by advertising in the local Gazette, without clarifying the status of a debt post mortem.

What conclusion did you come to? I was in exactly the same situation at the time and strangely enough revisited our wills last week so am wondering whether I need to take any further action.

I still haven't found a definitive answer online. Under "devastivit examples" in a link I provided earlier, there is a line which says
However:
a) Paying a debt barred by limitation is not always devastavit: Re Midgley [1893] 3 Ch 282


So for me it is still a grey area, which is why legal advice is needed.

An advert in The Gazette (not local Gazette) protects the personal representative, but could mean that a claim or claims on the estate arise as a result. It is the legal position then which needs to be clarified. ie Do such claims HAVE to be settled, or can they be rejected? If they can be rejected, does it require a court decision?

[ohitsonlyme]

Still Waving I read your thread before posting mine and thought that it hadnt come to a final conclusion.

My situation will be relevent to many of us that have since got back on our feet and have zombie debt collectors hanging around in the background

First of all a ccj never becomes statute barred and the original creditor would need to go back to court for permission to enforce, this is highly unlikley to happen after such a long time. This ccj was sold to DCA and a CCJ cannot be transferred without permission of the court and so DCA are highly unlikely be able to pursue. So the owner ship comes into question

BUT the debt still exists and the executors have a duty to satisfy old debts. I think a letter attached to my will wont guarantee DCA not being paid even if it is advertised in the gazette etc.

The point about not conc 7.15.8 and the creditor seems the way to go but as I said earlier it isnt statute barred

DCA cannot go back to court to enforce but they may sit on it with hope value



If I write to the DCA I want to put it to bed not show my hand

I have worked with Gerry and Joanna several years ago can we ask for further guidance on our situation, several of us are getting to that stage in life

Can somebody tag Gerry,Di or Joanna for help


Only me again

[Still Waving]

The point about not conc 7.15.8 and the creditor seems the way to go but as I said earlier it isnt statute barred

DCA cannot go back to court to enforce but they may sit on it with hope value



If I write to the DCA I want to put it to bed not show my hand

Only me again

My thinking was to point out to Cabot that the CCJ had expired under the Limitation Act 1980, and you would therefore not be paying the debt (which you do not acknowledge anyhow). Any further chasing would amount to harassment, which is not permitted, so would they confirm that the book is closed. If you could get a confirmation from them, that would be a useful document.

Are their letters threatening or tame?

[Dottir]

Searching the telnet seems to get a variety of answers. My u derstanding has always been that a ccj is never statute barred hence quoting conc is probably not the answer. However if the creditor has not enforced in 6 years they need a very good reason to get a court to agree. The longer the more difficult. I guess an example might be that you had gone off grid for ten years and they have only just found you but that is almost certainly n extreme. I think the gazette option is a very good idea.

[ohitsonlyme]

My thinking was to point out to Cabot that the CCJ had expired under the Limitation Act 1980, and you would therefore not be paying the debt (which you do not acknowledge anyhow). Any further chasing would amount to harassment, which is not permitted, so would they confirm that the book is closed. If you could get a confirmation from them, that would be a useful document.

Are their letters threatening or tame?

The letters are very tame, no worries on that score,when they first came on the scene i told them it was statute barred but they came back saying ccj are never SB

Since then They send letters every couple of months asking me to get in touch which I never do

Your suggestion on how to approach is along the lines I was going, important that I do nt acknowledge any alleged debt to them and to tell them that the ccj is not in their favour therefore I will not be paying telling them to stop quoting conc 7.15.8
Not quite sure how to word it tho

only me

[Still Waving]

Not quite sure how to word it tho

only me

Perhaps draft out two or three different versions, sleep on it, then combine what you think are the best parts from each into a coherent final version?

(Worked for Shakespeare. His first version of "The quality of mercy is not strained" continued "It droppeth like a dollop of dung." )

[Night Monkey]

Don't forget this bit

which you do not acknowledge

[ohitsonlyme]

Letter now sent I will post up details as the reply comes along

Onlymeagain