New tenancy problem

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

We are now coming up to the finishing line thank goodness!

If the AST ends on 31st July and doesn't stipulate any time to vacate, is it reasonable to stay until midnight or just before? The only reason I ask is because they didn't get the date of their tenancy for the new house amended to 31st July and doesn't start until 1st August!

Is there a landlords association or something where a landlord can be reported for abuse and unreasonable behaviour?

The risk assessment company for the new house they are moving into and the new agents have tried to speak to her and she has been very abusive and refused to give a reference. The original agent that sourced the tenants but didn't manage the property for the duration of the tenancy was so incensed at her behaviour, that he kindly did a reference for them, despite only meeting them a few times and having no record of rent history.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Tenancy agreements normally run from midday. If your son's AST doesn't stipulate a time then I guess that would mean midnight but no later.

I'm surprised it doesn't state a time because vacating the property would require an inventory check and/or a schedule of condition to be drawn up and inventory clerks don't work in the middle of the night.

Once the check has been done the tenants must vacate immediately and they would be obliged to hand over their keys to the inventory clerk or the agent which can't be done in the middle of the night either (unless they've agreed to drop them through the agent's letterbox).

You need to speak to the agent about this because it's not uncommon to have a new Tenant move in within hours of the old Tenants leaving unless the Landlord plans to have work done. You said that she already has new Tenants lined up.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Is there a landlords association or something where a landlord can be reported for abuse and unreasonable behaviour?

The risk assessment company for the new house they are moving into and the new agents have tried to speak to her and she has been very abusive and refused to give a reference. The original agent that sourced the tenants but didn't manage the property for the duration of the tenancy was so incensed at her behaviour, that he kindly did a reference for them, despite only meeting them a few times and having record of rent history.

If their Landlord is a member of the National Landlords Association then they can make a complaint about her:

http://www.landlords.org.uk/accredit...laints-process

Do you have any proof she's been abusive or is that hearsay?

A Landlord is not legally obliged to give a reference. I have refused to give references when I feel it's better to say nothing than give a bad reference. That way the next Landlord taking on my ex-tenant will be able to read between the lines.

Most external referencing agencies only ask three questions along the lines of: (1) has the rent been paid on time (2) has the property been looked after, and (3) would you let a property to this Tenant again. It's possible to leave question No 3 blank or speak frankly. I find a simple "No" when it's justified is fair to warn the next Landlord that they may be in for a rough ride.

Maybe under the circumstances and due to the ongoing friction between the Landlord and Tenants she did them a favour by refusing to give a reference because that's better than saying what she really thought of them

I genuinely hope the next Landlord shows your son and his mates a little more respect because they've not enjoyed their stay in this property. All the grief could have easily been avoided if the communication between them had been better.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

25th July:

Originally Posted by marypoppins
Is there a landlords association or something where a landlord can be reported for abuse and unreasonable behaviour?

The risk assessment company for the new house they are moving into and the new agents have tried to speak to her and she has been very abusive and refused to give a reference. The original agent that sourced the tenants but didn't manage the property for the duration of the tenancy was so incensed at her behaviour, that he kindly did a reference for them, despite only meeting them a few times and having record of rent history.


27th July:

The original agent that sourced the tenants but didn't manage the property for the duration of the tenancy was so incensed at her behaviour, that he kindly did a reference for them, despite only meeting them a few times and having no record of rent history.

I can see you edited your post yesterday (after I had posted on your thread) to say that the agent gave a reference on behalf of the tenants despite having no record of rent history. This is shameful behaviour by that agent and they should be reported to The Property Ombudsman for lying in a reference (if they are members of the scheme). The agent is the one abusing the system not the Landlord.

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Thank you for the NLA link PlanB, I'll have a more serious look once they have moved out and the deposit has been returned.

No vacating time is mentioned in the agreement and my comments were a bit 'tongue in cheek', of course it wouldn't be satisfactory for anyone to do a checkout at midnight, I just wondered what your opinion would be.

I do take your point about the agent giving a reference, however he does know the landlady and the problems she has caused throughout the tenancy and at the end of the day, he would have known if there had been a problem with rent not being paid because he would have had to find some new tenants for her.

I think withholding a reference is unacceptable when the rent has been paid on the dot for the duration of the tenancy, it implies that there has been problems with the tenants which is very unfair when the friction that has been caused has mostly been down to them living in a building site for several weeks throughout the 12 months they have been there and simply getting fed up with it.

It's a pity that tenants moving out don't have a facility to give any prospective tenants a reference too, it can work both ways and would probably give some of the landlords a boot up the back side that they need.

As it stands at the moment, they plan to move their furniture and belongings out asap on Wednesday so that the professional clean can be done more easily.

No arrangements have yet been made for the check out to be done and there isn't anything in the tenancy agreement referring to how this is arranged, just what is expected as a far as cleaning etc.

I recall PlanB that you mentioned that it would make sense for the check out inventory to be completed by the same company that did the check in. My son has put a call in to the company to see if they will be doing the check out.

Would you agree that it is reasonable for the house to be inspected with all the tenants in attendance, room by room with any considered problems being noted in writing and a copy of the notes being given to them signed and agreed (or not) by them all prior to handing back the keys? Of course many photo's need to be taken at this point too.

As far as the verbal abuse is concerned, yes it is hearsay but the fact that several people have been subject to this treatment indicates that this isn't an isolated incident.

Roll on Friday!

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

Would you agree that it is reasonable for the house to be inspected with all the tenants in attendance, room by room with any considered problems being noted in writing and a copy of the notes being given to them signed and agreed (or not) by them all prior to handing back the keys? Of course many photo's need to be taken at this point too.

There is no need for the Tenants to be at the inspection because the Inventory Clerk will simply note what he sees. He will ignore any remarks made by the Tenants because he'll have heard it all before. The Inventory Clerk cannot be influenced. He's only there to make an accurate record of the condition with photos.

Then that Check-Out Inventory is usually sent to the tenants in the post/email giving them seven days to agree and sign, or disagree and comment in writing to the agent or Landlord. It's not an argument to be had with the Inventory Clerk. He is impartial, objective, non-involved and 'deaf' to anything anyone says.

If there's a dispute it will go to whichever scheme is holding the deposit for arbitration.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

I do take your point about the agent giving a reference, however he does know the landlady and the problems she has caused throughout the tenancy and at the end of the day, he would have known if there had been a problem with rent not being paid because he would have had to find some new tenants for her.

Not necessarily. She may have decided to use another agency if there were rent issues with the Tenants.

The agent had no knowledge or evidence of the rent being paid on time so he lied in that reference.

it implies that there has been problems with the tenants which is very unfair when the friction that has been caused has mostly been down to them living in a building site for several weeks throughout the 12 months they have been there and simply getting fed up with it.

Did they ask for a rent rebate for the inconvenience like I suggested?

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

The rent was proven with bank statements PlanB so no lies were made.

They didn't ask about a rent rebate and I agree that they should have but she was so unapproachable, it took ages to get a mere £40 for the canvas wardrobe that the builders wrecked!

Tomorrow is check out day so will be back to update. They have had the house professionally cleaned including a steam clean of the oven, curtains dry cleaned, garden tidied which they have kept tidy throughout their stay. Drains, gutters and waste pipes cleaned with drain cleaner and bleached areas where appropriate.

But they haven't had the carpets cleaned due to the mess the builders made on them, they did point this out at the time and she agreed that they didn't have to do this, but she has now denied saying it! However they have photo's of the mess the builders made so we will see what happens.

A checkout inventory is not done by the check in company, she will do it herself based on the check in one, which will probably work in the tenants favour because it doesn't show the state of the house in a very good light!

Roll on tomorrow.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

You're nearly there!

I have a feeling she'll argue about the carpet cleaning but back down when your son and his mates provide her with all those photos. The only other things she could raise are provable breakages such as cupboard door handles or shower curtains etc. They'd be entitled to argue 'wear and tear' on pretty much everything else such as discoloured grouting. Floor scratches and coffee ring marks can be an issue if the professional clean can't remove them. Cigarette burns are the only other thing I've had to argue.

Make sure they take a note of the utility meter readings using a digital camera.

They should get back the deposit in 10 days or a letter explaining any reason to withhold part of it. Keep us posted.

If she deducts anything from the deposit then raise a complaint with the scheme who's holding it or the insurance company who's insured it (if she's using mydeposits).

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Thank you PlanB

Just a brief update, she turned up 45 mins late, with no explanation or apology!

She toured the house, questioning various things in each room which she wasn't happy with but they pointed out that the check in inventory noted the same things so they couldn't be held responsible and she couldn't argue with that.

She asked what the carpets had been cleaned with (a vax done by the tenants) and nothing more was said.

She wasn't impressed with the 'professional' clean (cost £300 for communal areas only) and despite a receipt being produced, she has insisted they obtain a receipt showing a breakdown of what was done. It does ask for an itemised receipt on the AST so they can't object to this and have been in touch with the company to sort it.

My son had arranged the cleaning company, having used them at his last house and they did a fantastic job, unfortunately if turned out to be a different company (he wasn't there when it was done) and the job wasn't as good as it should have been so this will somehow have to be addressed. In hindsight, they should have asked her for a recommendation!

I can't see the point of getting an itemised receipt now, or what difference this will make when she has already done the inspection.

She wasn't happy about the windows, they were smeared. Again a 'professional' job done costing £30!

She wanted replacement curtain hooks for the curtains in my sons room but backed down after he pointed out that his curtains weren't up at his window and had to sort them himself when he moved in. (this was stated in the inventory)

A light had gone in the extractor fan in the kitchen, it has never worked but wasn't mentioned in the inventory either way. I don't suppose a new bulb will cost a fortune.

As it stands, she said that she will sort out whatever deductions she deems fit, once she is in receipt of the itemised cleaning bill.

Hmm, not quite as brief but that's it, more or less!

Lots of photographs taken and of the meters too.

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

She wasn't impressed with the 'professional' clean (cost £300 for communal areas only) and despite a receipt being produced, she has insisted they obtain a receipt showing a breakdown of what was done. . .

. . . she said that she will sort out whatever deductions she deems fit, once she is in receipt of the itemised cleaning bill..

She's just being plain awkward for the sake of it. Who needs a breakdown of what was cleaned if she's got a pair of eyes to see it for herself. Does it matter whether they used Domestos or Sainsbury's own brand bleach down the toilet? And does she want to know whether the floors were cleaned with a Dyson or an Electrolux vacuum cleaner?

However you do say that only the communal areas were professionally cleaned so I'm guessing that didn't include the bedrooms in which case she may have those rooms professionally cleaned herself and deduct that cost from the deposit which would not be unreasonable.

I'm beginning to dislike her as much as you do. Still it's all over now

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

She's just being plain awkward for the sake of it. Who needs a breakdown of what was cleaned if she's got a pair of eyes to see it for herself. Does it matter whether they used Domestos or Sainsbury's own brand bleach down the toilet? And does she want to know whether the floors were cleaned with a Dyson or an Electrolux vacuum cleaner?

My thoughts exactly!

However you do say that only the communal areas were professionally cleaned so I'm guessing that didn't include the bedrooms in which case she may have those rooms professionally cleaned herself and deduct that cost from the deposit which would not be unreasonable.

They'd still got their belongings in their bedrooms on the day the clean was done but the house is more or less unfurnished so they only had a bed to move and clean under and around the bedrooms.

I'm beginning to dislike her as much as you do. Still it's all over now

'Dislike' is very mild for this bitch! But I believe that what comes around goes around!

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Hi PlanB,

Would you mind giving the attached a once over please when you have a minute or two?

On the one hand I wonder whether we should leave it until she has considered any deductions but on the other hand, I don't want her to think that she can just take money that is unjustified.

There's no internet connection at the new house atm so I'm doing this on behalf of the guys.

I hope I've attached it ok, it's been a long time since I've done this!

[PlanB]

Re: New tenancy problem

On the one hand I wonder whether we should leave it until she has considered any deductions but on the other hand, I don't want her to think that she can just take money that is unjustified.

I wouldn't do anything until Day 10 when the deposit should be paid or any issues the Landlord wishes to dispute will be raised and the balance returned. Until then all you can do is anticipate what she might do, but I'm not sure whether it's wise to go on the offensive before then in case that only provokes her into being even more intransigent than she already is (if that's possible!). In short don't pick a fight with her now.

Whatever email/letter goes to the Landlord must come from the Tenants themselves not you unless they nominate you as their official 'agent' which is a bit cumbersome. If your son is the Lead Tenant on the AST then the letter should come from him. The arbitration service (used by the deposit holder) will only deal with the Lead Tenant. A letter from the Lead Tenant's Mummy will be ignored since you weren't there at the check-out (or check-in) so have no first-hand knowledge of what was said between the parties (hearsay). Anything written to the Landlady has the potential to end up in front of the arbitrator including your emails. She could use this against the Tenants.

The Landlady has asked for an itemised cleaning bill because she can according to the tenancy agreement. You can't really criticize her for that.

I take your point about the Schedule of Condition being carried out by her and not a third party. There was nothing to stop the Tenants having their own inventory carried out so if there is a dispute they could present it to the arbitrator and ask for the Landlady to pay for its cost if they win the argument. The tenancy agreement should say who pays for the end of term check-out. Mine always say the Tenant should pay which on reflection is a bit unfair. But by doing that I put the ball in the Tenant's court to chose who they want to do it and I stand by their decision. That way I can't be accuse of not being objective.

The arbitrator will only look at the facts and not opinion. You can't really complain that she didn't give a rent reduction when the builders were in if you never asked for one at the time. Using it as a stick to beat her with now may be fruitless.

How do the other Tenants feel about all this? If your son is a lone voice he may have to go with the majority and agree with whatever they're happy to agree if he's outnumbered. The arbitrator may take a view on only one dissatisfaction against three content Tenants.

I know the deposit for your son was paid with your money but in legal terms it's his quarrel not yours. If it's any consolation I've never got back any money I've stumped up for my daughter's deposits over the years because she can't be bothered to fight for it since it's not her money

[marypoppins]

Re: New tenancy problem

Ok PlanB, I hear what you're saying.

I'll be back after 10 days!