No tenancy agreement

[pezman65]

Re: No tenancy agreement

I have plenty of experience in this area. I've thrown out loads of men in my lifetime and changed the locks behind them too

On a more serious note I'll be back in the morning with some helpful suggestions and practical steps for your son

While I appreciate the need for revenge perhaps going round to the salon with a bunch of heavies and a baseball bat to recover his stuff may not be the best idea She would call the police and your son could find himself charged with criminal damage if the event got ugly (and trust me it would) Since the tenancy agreement is in his ex-fiance's name he could even be done for tresspass. Unfair but true.

Grassing-up his fiance to the Landlord for sub-letting the flat wouldn't work because your son has been paying rent direct to the Landlord so it won't come as a big surprise to him. Most Landlords don't give a damn where the money comes from as long as it arrives in the bank. A Landlord wouldn't, and more importantly probably couldn't, lawfully evict her for having her bloke pay *her* rent. He would have to prove that there was a commercial arrangement between them such as a written tenancy agreement. And there wasn't. What would be achieved by doing that anyway? Getting her evicted and left without the means to earn a living with the salon gone wouldn't help your son and could be seen as vindictive.

I appreciate neither of those two suggestions came from you.

You say "the tenancy agreement for the shop and the flat are in her name". Are as in plural. Do you mean there's a seperate tenancy agreement for each? This is most important.

The big question is what does you son actually want? Does he want money back on his investment (salon not girlfriend) or does he want to repair the relationship? He was the one who walked out not her If she wants to get 'legal' she could say he's abandoned the property. Best not to get 'legal' if it can be avoided. They were engaged and in love so there's bound to be a lot of hurt and anger flying around on both sides. How long ago did this 'row' happen? Is their relationship irreparable or doomed forever because of pride on both sides? Once you've done a legal/financial split it's awfully hard to change your mind.

Did they sign any mutual business deal/contract or set up a limited company together or anything formal for the hairdressing salon?

Okay, that's a lot of questions but my response will depend on your answers

Hi PlanB, thanks for getting involved, to answer the questions you ask: There is only one tenancy agreement in her name that covers both the salon and the flat as the landlord did not want to split them, although my son put up all the money for stock and equipment he put the tenancy in her name as it meant so much to her, she had not had much in her life and it was her dream to have a shop. He had a verbal agreement with the landlord, he gave him the £1050 deposit in cash and the first £780 cash for the first months rent, he also transfered the second months rent to his bank and has the recipt, they have only been there for just over two months. His fiance knew she had the salon and he had the flat,this was agreed right from the start, he lived there on his own, she never lived there, I understand that even a verbal agreement gives him some rights re being kicked out without any notice. My son did not walk out, he merely left after the argument re her contacting old boyfriends, he went back as normal at the end of the day and she had changed the locks, she has hit him in the past and her friend assaulted him when they had a argument re the issue of the ex boyfriends. She also got her dad to threaten him to get out of the flat, he had paid rent up to the 9th June but she changed the locks on the 6th. There is no way back from this he does not want to repair the relationship. Since she has changed the locks she has threatened to call the police if ever he attempts to enter "her shop or her flat" as she is now calling it, she has put most of his personal possessions on the back yard in full view and text him to collect them, he has got no bed or bedding, no furniture as she cant move that out of the flat by herself or with her friend, she has only put the stuff outside that she can carry, clothes ornaments etc, is the law relevent re "trespass against property" (see below). He realizes now how stupid and gullible he has been and just wants some money back so he can put a deposit down on another flat,(a little revenge would be nice also) he even sold his golf clubs to help her get more equipment for the shop, he has no money left now, she has had everything he had. He is also feeling very angry that she has taken his money, betrayed him, kicked him out and is now moving into his flat herself. I think that covers everything. Just to add he has got receipts for all the equipment,signs outside and stock in his name. Many thanks again, Pez

Trespass to goods is defined as "wrongful physical interference with goods that are in the possession of another",[5] and is covered not only by the common law, but also by the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977. The "trespass" can be as little as touching or moving the goods, given the right circumstances. It is unknown whether intention is required for a claim under trespass to goods, as the matter has never gone to court; the courts have confirmed that for damages to be awarded for harm suffered, the harm must have been reasonably foreseeable.

[PlanB]

Re: No tenancy agreement

From everything you say your son has been 'played' Let's look at his potential legal options tomorrow. He's lucky to have his Dad looking out for him I'm a Mum and I would do the same although I advised my baby (aged 27 yrs) to cut her losses and move on.

How much money has he invested and lost?

[pezman65]

Re: No tenancy agreement

From everything you say your son has been 'played' Let's look at his potential legal options tomorrow. He's lucky to have his Dad looking out for him I'm a Mum and I would do the same although I advised my baby (aged 27 yrs) to cut her losses and move on.

How much money has he invested and lost?

Hi again, just over £3000

[PlanB]

Re: No tenancy agreement

Hi again, just over £3000

Now there's a coincidence. Here's a link I posted on another thread which explains the legal issue of establishing if money (£3k) "lent" between boyfriend and girlfriend was a "gift" or a "loan":

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/e...-000-loan.html

[pezman65]

Re: No tenancy agreement

Now there's a coincidence. Here's a link I posted on another thread which explains the legal issue of establishing if money (£3k) "lent" between boyfriend and girlfriend was a "gift" or a "loan":

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/e...-000-loan.html

My son has texts from her thanking him for the money and promising to pay it back as soon as she can, not sure if that is relevant, cheers Pez

[PlanB]

Re: No tenancy agreement

My son has texts from her thanking him for the money and promising to pay it back as soon as she can, not sure if that is relevant, cheers Pez

Tell him not to delete those texts whatever happens

[PlanB]

Re: No tenancy agreement

£3000

Even though I'm sure your sofa is very comfy your son quite rightly wants a fresh start in a place of his own. Damage limitation comes first.

There will be accounts for electricity, phone, business rates for the salon and (possibly) seperate council tax for the flat. If any of these are in his name he should call up and cancel them giving his ex-girlfriend's name as the substitute.

From what you say he may have had a verbal agreement for use of the flat with his ex but not with the Landlord. I doubt he can pursue that line of thought. But on the bright side that means the Landlord can't pursue him for the rent due from now on if his ex can't/won't pay it since her name is on the legally binding contract and not his How long is the tenancy agreement?

Does that £3k invested include the £1,560 rent and the £1,050 deposit he paid for the two months he actually lived there? If it gets as far as court it could be said that he's had some benefit on his financial investment and he can only pursue the balance. If a business relationship is established could it be argued that he was responsible for some financial input during the short time he was part of the enterprise.

Does the salon make any money yet and where did he bank the 'takings' paid by customers? If it was into your son's account then he may have established a business relationship with his ex. If the salon is (or will be soon) profitable (income after rent etc) then there's a chance he may get his money back that way. Commonsense says if he had to lend the ex money to open the salon then she obviously hasn't got any of her own so a CCJ may not be worth the paper it's written on. But an Attachment of Earnings could be an attractive option

Is there any reason why his ex can't re-let the flat if it has it's own entrance? That income could cover the rent and keep the business afloat. She's no good to him if she's made BR by her Landlord for non payment of the rent. He needs to keep her working if he wants to see his money back! Why should she move into the flat if she's already got a home

The same applies to removing any of the stock he invested in. What would he do with hundreds of pounds of shampoo and hair conditioner apart from flog it on e-bay. Which is not a bad idea I suppose.

He deserves to get his money back after the way he has been treated

[pezman65]

Re: No tenancy agreement

Even though I'm sure your sofa is very comfy your son quite rightly wants a fresh start in a place of his own. Damage limitation comes first.

There will be accounts for electricity, phone, business rates for the salon and (possibly) seperate council tax for the flat. If any of these are in his name he should call up and cancel them giving his ex-girlfriend's name as the substitute.

From what you say he may have had a verbal agreement for use of the flat with his ex but not with the Landlord. I doubt he can pursue that line of thought. But on the bright side that means the Landlord can't pursue him for the rent due from now on if his ex can't/won't pay it since her name is on the legally binding contract and not his How long is the tenancy agreement?

Does that £3k invested include the £1,560 rent and the £1,050 deposit he paid for the two months he actually lived there? If it gets as far as court it could be said that he's had some benefit on his financial investment and he can only pursue the balance. If a business relationship is established could it be argued that he was responsible for some financial input during the short time he was part of the enterprise.

Does the salon make any money yet and where did he bank the 'takings' paid by customers? If it was into your son's account then he may have established a business relationship with his ex. If the salon is (or will be soon) profitable (income after rent etc) then there's a chance he may get his money back that way. Commonsense says if he had to lend the ex money to open the salon then she obviously hasn't got any of her own so a CCJ may not be worth the paper it's written on. But an Attachment of Earnings could be an attractive option

Is there any reason why his ex can't re-let the flat if it has it's own entrance? That income could cover the rent and keep the business afloat. She's no good to him if she's made BR by her Landlord for non payment of the rent. He needs to keep her working if he wants to see his money back! Why should she move into the flat if she's already got a home

The same applies to removing any of the stock he invested in. What would he do with hundreds of pounds of shampoo and hair conditioner apart from flog it on e-bay. Which is not a bad idea I suppose.

He deserves to get his money back after the way he has been treated

Hi PlanB thanks for your reply. There is a chance he did get a verbal agreement from the land loard as he gave him the first months rent and the security deposit as cash, they talked about the fact that the flat was going to be his and the Salon hers, I found the following on the Law Society website, What you think.

Legal rights without a written Tenancy Agreement
The fact a tenant does not have a written tenancy agreement does not affect a tenant’s statutory legal rights, or the landlords legal rights, for that matter. Both parties are still protected by statutory law.

Without a written contract, a landlord will still need to serve a valid Section 8 to evict a tenant. Even then, the landlord will need legitimate grounds to evict the tenant, and the tenant is entitled 14 days after the form is served, to decide what he/she wants to do. There is actually no difference in procedure for evicting a tenant that hasn't got a written contract than someone who has.

A tenant is entitled to stay in the property until evicted by a court bailiff (or High Court sheriff) acting under the authority of a court order for possession. If a tenant is evicted any other way, the landlord could be held liable for unlawful eviction.

Also the bit about her moving all his stuff out is against the "interference of goods act 1977" see below:

Trespass to goods is defined as "wrongful physical interference with goods that are in the possession of another",[5] and is covered not only by the common law, but also by the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977. The "trespass" can be as little as touching or moving the goods, given the right circumstances. It is unknown whether intention is required for a claim under trespass to goods, as the matter has never gone to court; the courts have confirmed that for damages to be awarded for harm suffered, the harm must have been reasonably foreseeable.
Am I dreaming or do you think this may be relevant, many thanks again, Pez

[PlanB]

Re: No tenancy agreement

Does you son actually want to claim possession and move back into the flat with his ex-fiance in situ She's already got a written tenancy agreement in her name so she could claim possession too. I doubt a verbal contract would override her written one. Wouldn't that be a bit awkward under the circumstances unless the flat has more than one bedroom?

Isn't there also a risk that if he did establish a verbal contract he could be liable for all the rent for the shop and the flat in the event his ex doesn't pay it for the rest of the contract term?

I'm not sure what he wants to do. Get his money back or move back in with her in the salon downstairs and the pair of them battle it out from within

What do you think would work best for him?

[pezman65]

Re: No tenancy agreement

Does you son actually want to claim possession and move back into the flat with his ex-fiance in situ She's already got a written tenancy agreement in her name so she could claim possession too. I doubt a verbal contract would override her written one. Wouldn't that be a bit awkward under the circumstances unless the flat has more than one bedroom?

Isn't there also a risk that if he did establish a verbal contract he could be liable for all the rent for the shop and the flat in the event his ex doesn't pay it for the rest of the contract term?

I'm not sure what he wants to do. Get his money back or move back in with her in the salon downstairs and the pair of them battle it out from within

What do you think would work best for him?

Hi PlanB, Ah yes I see what you mean, we cant have it both ways can we. If a verbal contract is upheld then the landlord has rights as well, I did miss that, thanks very much. He does not want to move back in or get back in a relationship with her, he just feels like we all do that she has now got a shop, a flat, equipment and stock that he has paid for and he is homeless and without a bed and no money left to put down on a deposit for another flat, just not fair. All he wants is to get his stuff out on his terms so he can fetch his bed and the other personal belongings that she is holding onto, at the moment he does not have his bed, bedding, TV or any furniture. He would also like to get the deposit back and some money for the stock and equipment he bought so he can move on. She is stating that if we go to the shop she will call the Police, the Police say we can not enter without her permission as she is the leaseholder, if she calls them he could get arrested for breach of peace. He has all the recipts for the stuff in his name as he bought them all, many thanks Pez