is this mis selling or what ?

[cardiac arrest]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

had a couple of responses from this.. Aviva wrote and said '''yeah okay it says there is a limit of £6k, BUT you always had the option with the open market option, if take your fund off somewhere else and buy an annuity..then you could have got a lot more"...Well, I said there's 3 things about this...1) why did Aviva not state that the returns quoted were only available from another provider,and not Aviva ? 2) There isn't enough money in the fund to even buy a GMP of £5k...and 3) The policy clearly states that even with taking the open market option for any excess funds above what is needed to pay for the GMP, the aggregate of that option, and the GMP can not pay more than the £6k...and anything that happens to be above this would be returned to the original employers pension fund or retained within Aviva. So please explain to me how that could have ever allowed me to receive a pension of £15k ?? Aviva have gone away to try and explain that one...I'm waiting for their reply.

I also had a letter from the snooty Mercers, who dug up a letter I had sent back in 2007 (which I'd forgotten about)..Mercers say they only worked on the adminstration and did not give any advice, therefor they are not liable...and that I had said I also contacted an IFA and in doing so the IFA would be liable...not Mercers. It's worded in a way that doesn't actually deny they gave advice, just more that someone else did...

In the end I'm not sure what I'll get out of any of this, only the joy of giving Aviva some grief for all the years they have fobbed me off with idle promises of riches only to confess at the end..oops sorry. I spoke to TPAS and they said ring HMRC and see what yourGMP was, and ask if there is a limit attached to GMP returns. I rang HMRC who were very helpful but said there was no limit, so they suggested the maximum written into my policy was a condition of my old company scheme,and that when the transfer to Aviva was made, that condition came with it...presumably so the company scheme could benefit from any super investment returns if there were any.

This is an intersting viewpoint...but as the company scheme closed in 1990 and is in the hands of Capita, I don't hold out much hope of finding out if this was the case, and if so, why ?

It might be a red herring, but I can see now how I'm going to fall into the 'hole' in the middle,with no one responsible apart from me (which might even be the case tbh). Aviva will say, ah but it was a condition of your company scheme, you should have been told..but not by us .....

will await their reply,but am fast running out of puff...TPAS were pretty useless, so I don't have much confidence if it went there they would have a clue...and do I want to spend the early years of my retirement chasing this ?...

Just one other thing, just for completeness for those following the story (?)..had the £6k been told to me back in 1987, and had the advice been available..the best option for me was to either leave all the pension in my company scheme or to transfer to my new employers final salary scheme. So i've written and asked my last employers how many years service the trasnfer value quoted back in 1987 would have bought me in my new employers pension scheme. This will enable me to work out the cost of the decisions I missed out on...Perhaps I don't want to really know this, but I'll have a glass of wine handy when they reply....

[Undercover Elsa]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

My, you're on the ball! Well done!

It's definitely worth a try. Mine had refused my works pension when I retired on health grounds in the nineties. Put me into poverty when my kids were growing up. The SAR revealed that they'd miscalculated my entitlement based on wrong number of years service and wrong final salary, and should have paid me. Took 2 years of arguing but I got it back.
It's a few years ago now, but what felt really good was arranging to meet my adult son for a coffee, and giving him a cheque for £2K in an envelope marked "The pocket money I owe you"

[cardiac arrest]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

Yes you could just adapt the standard SAR template to suit: http://www.all-about-debt.co.uk/inde...subject-access

You can add/ emphasise anything particular you require such as copies of telephone conversation recordings/notes

Elsa xx

Thanks Elsa, Sent off the request by email, including a request for all the relevant notes/recordings etc as you suggested.

They have acknowledged receipt and agreed to waive the fee, and it's been passed to the 'appropriate dept' who will respond within the required 40 days .

[Undercover Elsa]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

Yes you could just adapt the standard SAR template to suit: http://www.all-about-debt.co.uk/inde...subject-access

You can add/ emphasise anything particular you require such as copies of telephone conversation recordings/notes

Elsa xx

[cardiac arrest]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

Exactly. I would definitely SAR them, and specify that you want copies of recorded phone calls too.

just for clarification regarding the SAR, would the standard sample template be ok for this this SAR, obviously adjusted slightly to fit my case, I presume the sections of the Act are the same for
Insurance and Pension issues as they are for other finance companies and lenders ? I'm being a bit cheeky with Aviva and going to ask they agree to do it for free...then I'll send an email and get them to acknowledge receipt etc. Presume that works just as well as a registered letter and the fee sent ?

[Undercover Elsa]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

Exactly. I would definitely SAR them, and specify that you want copies of recorded phone calls too.

[cardiac arrest]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

At the time you took your pension out, a lot of private pensions were mis-sold. People were persuaded away from their occupational schemes without being given the proper information, such as (accurate) projections of how the occupational scheme would perform vs the private scheme.
A friend of ours who was on the dole was recruited to sell these pensions. I think he had a short training programme then on the road he went, advising people to buy these policies - on commission only. He tried to sell one to us but we declined.

Have a look here. Is this the Mercers you refer to?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...s-a-boost.html

yes that's them They used to be called William Mercer Fraser but are now Mercers Limited. They obtained the quotes back in 1987 as the employer had engaged them. I rang Mercers yesterday and they said they have now sold that part of their business, and that it was then sold again to another company....They identified my employer from 1987 on their computer though, and were going to pinpoint exactly who would answer my queries, with a name and contact number, they would ring me back in the afternoon. They didn't. I'll ring them again on Monday, as usual it is a battle with everybody, chasing up because they don't reply or respond is the norm it seems, or maybe I'm just impatient with them..Now if I owed them money, well we all know how prompt they can respond.

[cardiac arrest]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

The 25% draw down was for all policies. I took 25% on my little ones as well tax free, no extras, 25% was set in stone no additional. been thru complaints years ago and got no where with any regulator. Ironically it was the Inland Revenue who contacted me weeks before retirment and informed me what the amount of Pension from Aviva should and no less, they were correct as Aviva later confirmed the pension I was starting to receive. (less Tax of course)

Not always the case, if the policy has an element of GMP in it there can only be a tax free lump sum on the excess value of the investment. The GMP has to be met first and can not be less , so if the fund value is not enough to pay for an annuity to buy the GMP, there is no excess and thus no entitlement to a 25% tax free lump sum. This what a lot of people who bought section 32 policies have found ..even when they have thrown in their whole pension from a defined benefits employers scheme.. Policies which did not have an element of GMP would be able to pay a lump sum though.,as you have said.

[Undercover Elsa]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

At the time you took your pension out, a lot of private pensions were mis-sold. People were persuaded away from their occupational schemes without being given the proper information, such as (accurate) projections of how the occupational scheme would perform vs the private scheme.
A friend of ours who was on the dole was recruited to sell these pensions. I think he had a short training programme then on the road he went, advising people to buy these policies - on commission only. He tried to sell one to us but we declined.

Have a look here. Is this the Mercers you refer to?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...s-a-boost.html

[The Tech Clerk]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

Thanks Elsa, Do you know I never thought of a SAR...in fact I hadn't realised I could submit one on an investment policy, but now you mention it...I should have. It would be good to see the correspondence although Norwich Union never did write and say the maximum clause did not apply to me, because I never asked. Why would I ? The only time they did was a via a recent telephone call in December. What they did say, in writing, is look at these potential returns Mr ****...you could have a cash lump sum, or retire early etc..and I do have those letters from 1987 thru' to 1995..after that , when Aviva took over, it was more about 'look at your guarantees' and their shift from paying annual bonuses to a final bonus policy...Even now, and this is what Iam learning, the final bonus is only paid if your investment in the fund is valued at more than your guaranteed lump sum plus any bonuses added. So it's a notional payment because it doesn't increase the value at all,just makes them the same. Aviva have sent me annual statements recently with my fund value (based on the with profits fund valuation) and these have always been much less than the guaranteed fund I have accumulated over the years...so there's some catching up to do for it to get higher than my guarantee and then for a final bonus to be added. So I'm not really expecting a final bonus either.

Another aspect of it is the 'opportunity' to buy an annuity from elsewhere (they say)...but with annuity rates plummetting the same as investments have done, the final fund value will never be big enough to buy an annuity elsewhere that is going to pay the same , or more, than the GMP. I accept Aviva have to stand the loss on this..but that's no consolation tbh.
So it's a double whammy. Had I chosen to leave the money in my company scheme, the valuation (albeit on a different method)would have been double that which Aviva have acheived, and I would therefor have been able to take a tax free lump sum from my 'pot'.

In answer to your question, would I have bought the policy if Norwich Union had come clean about the maximum payment of £6k?, well most definately not ! There were two other companies that quoted similar (but slightly less) projected returns at that time..would I have chosen one of them, or would I have thought...leave it where it is or transfer it into my new employers pension scheme ? It may well have made me think about it, but Mercers didn't propose either of those options, and neither did the IFA I spoke to.

I'll see what Aviva come back with, and if I don't like it I will send a SAR...or maybe I'll send one anyway...and perhaps one to Mercers too.

Thank you for the suggestion !

The 25% draw down was for all policies. I took 25% on my little ones as well tax free, no extras, 25% was set in stone no additional. been thru complaints years ago and got no where with any regulator. Ironically it was the Inland Revenue who contacted me weeks before retirment and informed me what the amount of Pension from Aviva should and no less, they were correct as Aviva later confirmed the pension I was starting to receive. (less Tax of course)

[cardiac arrest]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

I have a S32 Norwich now Aviva policy too, never did fully understand it and still don't now like many I trusted the IFA who sold it too me.

You and many thousands of others..I suppose the main questions would be - what scheme were you in at the start, was it a defined benefits scheme with your employer. If it was, how much did they value your years service at when you asked for a valuation for transfer purposes. Did it included both your GMP and any excess you had in your scheme. What would you have expected your employers scheme to pay out compared to what Aviva are now quoting.Were there other options, like transferring your pot into a new employers scheme ..and if so, how much would that have been worth. Were you given comparable figures for all three options...

The problem many have had with Aviva, is that because the fund has performed poorly, they will have used any excess pension you earned in your employers scheme to prop up the S32 policy, so you may wellhave lost all of your excess funds, and still only get the GMP...which incidentally your employer would have guaranteed anyway. Based on my experience, did they slip in a little 'maximum' pension clause after to agreed to transfer to Aviva...

Each case is different, and fortunately for me only transferred my GMP element, and left the excess I had accrued in my old employers scheme..which has grown ok and which will pay out, but many didn't, and as such have lost all of that money...not an inconsiderable amount.

i didn't know any of this, and like most other people just trusted things to be ok..now here I am weeks away from drawing any benefits and dashing around and trying to ask the questions at the last minute. My trust was misplaced, I would have done things differently...but I accept that this is all in hindsight...had the policy returns been as predicted from the outset I'd be have been much happier about it over the years of the policy life...but not if Aviva had then turned round and said, yes here you are Mr ***, your pension will be £15,000 pa, as we estimated all those years ago...but unfortunately we're only going to pay you £6k because we slipped in a little maximum payment clause which we never you told you about, but which you should have read..so yah boo !

[cardiac arrest]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

I'd still give it a try, would you have bought it if you'd been told the max payout was £6K, did they put it in writing that the limit didn't apply to you? If that was the case why did they keep sending you projected earnings, upon which basis you decided to stay with the scheme?

Maybe a SAR is the way to go next.

Not quite the same, but I took my works ill health pension scheme on, and they argued black was white at first, but after I got a SAR I found loads of errors and eventually they paid up.

Thanks Elsa, Do you know I never thought of a SAR...in fact I hadn't realised I could submit one on an investment policy, but now you mention it...I should have. It would be good to see the correspondence although Norwich Union never did write and say the maximum clause did not apply to me, because I never asked. Why would I ? The only time they did was a via a recent telephone call in December. What they did say, in writing, is look at these potential returns Mr ****...you could have a cash lump sum, or retire early etc..and I do have those letters from 1987 thru' to 1995..after that , when Aviva took over, it was more about 'look at your guarantees' and their shift from paying annual bonuses to a final bonus policy...Even now, and this is what Iam learning, the final bonus is only paid if your investment in the fund is valued at more than your guaranteed lump sum plus any bonuses added. So it's a notional payment because it doesn't increase the value at all,just makes them the same. Aviva have sent me annual statements recently with my fund value (based on the with profits fund valuation) and these have always been much less than the guaranteed fund I have accumulated over the years...so there's some catching up to do for it to get higher than my guarantee and then for a final bonus to be added. So I'm not really expecting a final bonus either.

Another aspect of it is the 'opportunity' to buy an annuity from elsewhere (they say)...but with annuity rates plummetting the same as investments have done, the final fund value will never be big enough to buy an annuity elsewhere that is going to pay the same , or more, than the GMP. I accept Aviva have to stand the loss on this..but that's no consolation tbh.
So it's a double whammy. Had I chosen to leave the money in my company scheme, the valuation (albeit on a different method)would have been double that which Aviva have acheived, and I would therefor have been able to take a tax free lump sum from my 'pot'.

In answer to your question, would I have bought the policy if Norwich Union had come clean about the maximum payment of £6k?, well most definately not ! There were two other companies that quoted similar (but slightly less) projected returns at that time..would I have chosen one of them, or would I have thought...leave it where it is or transfer it into my new employers pension scheme ? It may well have made me think about it, but Mercers didn't propose either of those options, and neither did the IFA I spoke to.

I'll see what Aviva come back with, and if I don't like it I will send a SAR...or maybe I'll send one anyway...and perhaps one to Mercers too.

Thank you for the suggestion !

[Undercover Elsa]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

I'd still give it a try, would you have bought it if you'd been told the max payout was £6K, did they put it in writing that the limit didn't apply to you? If that was the case why did they keep sending you projected earnings, upon which basis you decided to stay with the scheme?

Maybe a SAR is the way to go next.

Not quite the same, but I took my works ill health pension scheme on, and they argued black was white at first, but after I got a SAR I found loads of errors and eventually they paid up.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

I have a S32 Norwich now Aviva policy too, never did fully understand it and still don't now like many I trusted the IFA who sold it too me.

[cardiac arrest]

Re: is this mis selling or what ?

Hi Cardiac Arrest, the Pensions Advisory Service might be a good place to start, if you haven't already. You can contact them on their helpline, by webchat or email:
http://www.pensionsadvisoryservice.org.uk/ask-us

Elsa x

Hi Elsa, yes thanks for that. I did indeed drop TPAS an email, well one of their online forms tbh but same thing. Normally takes them 2 or 3 weeks to allocate it to one of their staff and for them to get back to you though. I've emailed Aviva too, and theri complaints procedure says they'll respond in 10 days...so waiting for them too...I was wondering about Mercers though,but perhaps I'll just sit tight a while and wait and see what replies I get first.

I'm still unsure though where I'd end up with this. Aviva could argue the policy is only paying £5k anyway so what am I worrying about a £6k limit for ? But I suppose we need to go back to 1987 and ask a few 'what ifs' ...what if I had done something else with my money...left it in the company scheme, sold to somebody else or transferred to new employer ?..Non of these things went through my head at the time..and Mercer certainly didn't suggest any other alternative than a S32..and that was it...even the IFA said go for the S32....obviously neither of them looked at the policy wording either...

There's a lesson here for others I reckon..if you don't understand your pension investments....then find out and don't just leave it like I did...trust nobody...