Roger UE Diary

[The Tech Clerk]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

1972
NatWest, Midland, Lloyds & RBS join together to issue the Access credit card under the Joint CreditCardCompany (JCCC).

1972
Lloyds Bank ‘Cashpoint’ is the first on-line verified ATM using plastic cards with a magnetic stripe.

1974
Consumer Credit Act (Section 75) provides protection to consumers buying goods costing between £30 and £10,000 (£100 and £30,000 in 2005) on their credit card: if the product turns out to be sub-standard, or fails to be delivered, the cardholder can claim compensation from the card-issuing bank. The Act (Section 84) also limits customer liability to no more than £50 if cards are stolen, and used by someone else.

1977
Barclaycard issues the first UK company card – hitherto cards had been issued only to individuals.

1977
Consumer Credit Act comes into force on July 1st 1977

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

HSBC in the 90s issued 1 x mastercard & 1 x Visa card ?

i know. Shared limit too

[The Tech Clerk]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

HSBC under (Midland umbrella) in the 90s issued 1 x mastercard & 1 x Visa card ?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

It's because it's before 19/05/85. I've explained why HSBC is likely unregulated.

It's because the relevant parts of the CCA wasn't in force until May 1985 hence the key date is always post (19)/05/1985. Anything prior to then was exempt as there was no such thing as a s.78 request.

Hence the HSBC agreement would likely be a non regulated agreement.

Read s.78 / s.141 etc. There's too many points to list but the key date is 05/1985. Section 78 wasn't valid before then either so you couldn't do a s.78 request now. It's a chargecard so was unregulated.

s.78 was brought into force on 19.5.1985. Schedule 3 states that "s.78 applies to an agreement made before 19.5.1985 where the agreement would have been regulated agreement if made on that day". Under regulation 9 of the copy documents regulations, it specifies that in the case of an agreement made before 19.5.1985 it is sufficient to supply a copy of the current terms which thus acts as a true copy. Obviously only for s.78, not for court (CPR applies).

However let's stick on track. This is not HSBC on this thread is it?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

When all the credit cards flooded the market i.e. ACCESS & Barclaycard, they were deemed agreement one 1st purchase was made, that was early 70s, no signed agreement as has been stated. Know my 1st one was ACCESS with the provisal once used then that was vered the agreement, although on launch arguments regarding legality was widely argued.

Access was a charge card at first so it's always exempt from CCA until it changed to running credit in the 90's.

It's part of the JCCC (joint credit card company).

They're exempt based on being a chargecard, ie no interest as you pay in full. Back then we only had Barclaycard as CC Providers.

[Roger]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

When all the credit cards flooded the market i.e. ACCESS & Barclaycard, they were deemed agreement one 1st purchase was made, that was early 70s, no signed agreement as has been stated. Know my 1st one was ACCESS with the provisal once used then that was vered the agreement, although on launch arguments regarding legality was widely argued.

Spot On.
The Aug wasn't date of Access card it was first used. HSBC renumbered theses Cards in mid late 1990's and treated them as CCA compliant (they weren't). That change of number has been used to cover up (as lost CCA) agreements that never existed by HSBC issue Current Terms for s.78 and suing!

There never was a signed agreement and it didn't come under CCA 1974.
What made this especially bitter was the APR should have been at a very special rate and wasn't HSBC had been overcharging for years. There was No debt actually they owed Me.

I did all of the research but failed in protocols and handling the claim properly!
Each Card has a International Identity and when HSBC took over Midland at some point these Numbers were changed for HSBC (international numbers). What that means is that even the NUMBER they quoted didn't exist in 1976 their Number only came into existence in 90's.
That means they actually recorded date was suspect! The whole claim was signed as statement of Truth!

You really have to dig for the above and I hope it may be of use to members

I have details of these BIN Bank Identification numbers which are as International Numbers and they can be very useful with respect old Access Cards indeed with newer Credit Card players in determining dates when the BIN came into existence

[Roger]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

Just to explain s.78 with Old CCA's

HSBC took my s.78 request and sent current terms to satisfy CCA.
TheConsumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983(“the Copies Regulations”) Regulation 9
Copies of old agreements and security instrumentswhere the agreement or security instrument has been lost etc
Anycopy of an executed agreement made before 19th May 1985 or of a securityinstrument relating to security provided before that date which is given to thedebtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act on or after that datemay comprise an easily legible statement of the current terms of the agreementor security as the case may be insofar as they are known to the creditor orowner where, due to an accident or some other cause beyond his control, thecreditor or owner does not have in his possession the executed agreement orsecurity instrument or any copy thereof.

In my case the date was Aug 1976!

1. Under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Commencement No2) Order 1977, credit agreements made before 1^st April 1977 were not regulated agreements under the Act.

The Claim
“The Claimant’s claim is for the balance outstanding under a credit card agreement dated 1/08/1976 and numbered ################ regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. The Defendant has failed to make payment of the arrears of instalments as required by the Statutory Default Notice served by the Claimant dated 8/01/2013”

[The Tech Clerk]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

When all the credit cards flooded the market i.e. ACCESS & Barclaycard, they were deemed agreement one 1st purchase was made, that was early 70s, no signed agreement as has been stated. Know my 1st one was ACCESS with the provisal once used then that was vered the agreement, although on launch arguments regarding legality was widely argued.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

Basically I asked for s.78 HSBC said we can't its 1976.

It's because the relevant parts of the CCA wasn't in force until May 1985 hence the key date is always post (19)/05/1985. Anything prior to then was exempt as there was no such thing as a s.78 request.

Hence the HSBC agreement would likely be a non regulated agreement.

[Roger]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

When? If recent we could help you determine liklihood of appeal?

When you speak to Jo run it past her - just say Niddy suggested I ask you about it. She may say forget it but then again she may know of a flaw that could allow an appeal (if worthwhile).....

Hi Niddy its in my
http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/showthread.php?19444-Roger-UE-Diary/page2

Basically I asked for s.78 HSBC said we can't its 1976. Later I was sent a current terms under to satisfy CCA (it was permissible for very old where these had been lost!).
However in this case it was pre CCA 1974 aug1976.
HSBC issued a claim under CCA for a date that was non regulated! they even referred to a DN. I used GOODF counter claimed under contract law! It was thrown out!
I asked under CPR for the Agreement and DN Nothing
On the Day in court there was Counsel and Costs £2000 and rising!
Well Nothing No Agreement No DN (which was in the claim)
The point is HSBC produced printout of the electronic record of the DN being sent! The point is of the very very strict requirements of DN's.
Forget the Agreement HSBC couldn't prove they had issued a valid DN.
The judge was very good and simply asked me if I had had the money! Well of course I had but there was no signed document! The Judge simply said well they can't find it I adjuged it was signed!
Folly isn't the right word! There was NO CASE under CCA 1974 to answer!

This is why you need sites like AAD because in these cases the devil is in the detail. Its not just say the CCA its a whole lot of issues!
Sadly templates that seem to fit all sizes don't!

As Niddy has pointed out in my own Case there is a real mishmash of details which do not seem to have been satisfied. I can see that if I had come to this site earlier these would have been picked up earlier and probably stamped ON!

I will leave it to Plan B. Niddy etc.. If they wish to give further info. This is a complex area and sometimes the answer is negotiate of course!

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED ( HOWELL JONES LLP ) v Roger - Issued 1 December 2015

HSBC cost me dear for something I shouldn't have lost!!

When? If recent we could help you determine liklihood of appeal?

When you speak to Jo run it past her - just say Niddy suggested I ask you about it. She may say forget it but then again she may know of a flaw that could allow an appeal (if worthwhile).....

[Roger]

Re: Roger UE Diary

Nice little Christmas present from PRA Group today!
1/ Claim Form
2/ Separate Particulars and Terms!

[The Tech Clerk]

Re: Roger UE Diary

usual template - nice to let you know that you do live there! lol pathetic company, they are not he only ones which send such stupid statements

[Roger]

Re: Roger UE Diary

Wescott letter received reference
Intelligent Finance (Halifax)
"our enquiries have confirmed you are resident at the address above but we have not yet had contact from you"
I presume DON'T reply!
Have added to the Diary entry !

[Roger]

Re: Roger UE Diary

MBNA
I will continue keep everybody informed Nothing to report 1/12/15 (have updated MBNA entry)