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**alianza** · 17 February 2021, 18:33

I don't think I need any urgent help on this one , nothing says letter of claim etc like the first debt so I guess i will wait and see what turns up in March. Alianza

**Joanna Connolly Solicitors** · 17 February 2021, 22:54

A quick question from me

Who was the original creditor and when was the account opened?

Di

**alianza** · 18 February 2021, 07:02

Hi, it was a debt from an MBNA credit card originally taken out march 2002. i didn't pay it when i was going through a divorce, not sure when it defaulted probably sometime about 2012 to 2014...my paperwork from that time is not complete, i think it was with aktiv before pra got involved., Alianza

**Joanna Connolly Solicitors** · 18 February 2021, 10:56

Originally posted by alianza View Post

a debt from an MBNA credit card originally taken out march 2002. . . not sure when it defaulted probably sometime about 2012 to 2014. . . i think it was with aktiv before pra

Thank you for more background information.

I'm interested to see that Aktiv Kapital may have been involved somewhere along the line.

Does the name Experto Credite mean anything to you? Or does the name Varde mean anything to you either.

PRA sometimes have difficulty in proving assignment chains especial with old MBNA credit cards (I note yours was from 2002).

PRA took me to court for two old MBNA credit card accounts, and they lost on the assignment chain argument, as well as two irredeemable credit agreements.

Jo explains this here >

Originally posted by Joanna Connolly View Post

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGNMENT PROVED”

So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.

Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.

After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.

Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.

This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.

Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Di

**alianza** · 21 February 2021, 12:58

I have seen nothing with experto credite or varde on them. Both these PRA debts are for MBNA credit cards, the one with the bad photocopy of an agreement that i was told was unenforceable was for a 2002 application for a credit card. The other PRA debt was for a credit card taken out in 1994 and they couldnt provide anything for that(see other post.)

Alianza

**alianza** · 21 February 2021, 12:58

Here is some additional information regarding this debt as I have found my folder of early letters.

12th July 2012 letter from MBNA stating account has been terminated

10th August 2012 letter from MBNA saying debt now sold to Aktiv Kapital Portfolio AS Zug Branch

16th August 2012 Letter from Aktiv Kapital (UK) Ltd saying acting on behalf of Aktiv Kapital Portfolio AS Zug Branch

9th April 2013 letter from Aktiv Kapital offering a discount

1st july 2013 letter from Aktiv Kapital offering a discount

16th jan 2015 letter from PRA telling me PRA Group (UK) Limited have been assigned the debt from Aktiv Kapital Portfolio, AS, Oslo, Zug branch on 31/12/2014 and also a stement of accoun that also says that Aktiv Kapital (UK) Limited changed its name to PRA Group (UK) Limited on 6th November 2014

Alianza

**Joanna Connolly Solicitors** · 21 February 2021, 16:54

Originally posted by alianza View Post

16th Feb 2017 I sent a CCA request i got off the internet.
. . .
9th may 2017. letter from PRA saying now passed to their Investigation and Litigation Dept. ignored and filed
. . .
1st Feb 2021 letter from PRA saying now back at their litigation dept and if no response within 30 days they may put me on notice for court proceedings. ignored and filed.

That doesn't sound like a Letter of Claim but a Pre-Lit letter which will probably be followed by a LOC.

Thank you for updating your documents.

I can see the credit agreement PRA sent you was deemed unenforceable by Niddy, and I can't see any mention of a Default Notice from MBNA before the account was terminated. That's two reasons not to worry at this stage

Di

**alianza** · 21 February 2021, 17:19

Ok thx, although just because I do not have a notice of default doesn't mean I wasn't sent one, as I said in previous post i was going through a bad time from 2011 to 2015, not all mail got to me sometimes i think my ex just binned stuff if she felt like it....should i be thinking of doing a SAR request to MBNA and PRA to see what was actually sent or is that a bad idea at this time. Iain

**Joanna Connolly Solicitors** · 21 February 2021, 19:41

Originally posted by alianza View Post

just because I do not have a notice of default doesn't mean I wasn't sent one . . . should i be thinking of doing a SAR request to MBNA and PRA to see what was actually sent or is that a bad idea at this time

I agree that just because you do not have a Default Notice in your file it doesn’t mean MBNA sent one. It also doesn’t mean they did.

Don’t send a SAR to MBNA yet and don’t send a SAR to PRA.

You and I are at the discreet research stage.

Di

**alianza** · 18 June 2021, 18:32

Have now had a letter before claim for this one, very similar to the one I received for the other debt a few days ago that I mentioned on my other thread. The main difference for this debt is that they did respond to my CCA request in 2017 with a photocopy of my original signed from 2002 application form but that was deemed unenforceable by niddy a few years back. Am really unsure now as to what to do as for the other one I had a call to tell me to just ignore and other people wrote to reply ticking box D. Obviously these are for smallish amounts £1147 this one and just over £900 for the other and I obviously don't want to end up with a legal bill of hundreds when I could have made these go away for a lot less with maybe an offer or preferably some response where they just drop it for nothing. Confused. Alianza

ps should I hit them with a SAR request now or not?

**PlanB** · 18 June 2021, 19:10

Originally posted by alianza View Post

had a letter before claim for this one, very similar to the one I received for the other debt a few days ago that I mentioned on my other thread. . . . Am really unsure now as to what to do as for the other one I had a call to tell me to just ignore and other people wrote to reply ticking box D. Obviously these are for smallish amounts £1147 this one and just over £900 for the other and I obviously don't want to end up with a legal bill of hundreds when I could have made these go away for a lot less with maybe an offer or preferably some response where they just drop it for nothing. Confused. Alianza

I’ll do my best to help you not to feel confused

Making a threat of legal proceedings is part and parcel of the Pre-Action Protocol process.

They scare you into thinking they have a hard and fast (legal) case against you, and then you have the opportunity to question that and hopefully make them go away.

I can’t comment on any call you received to advise you to ignore the Letter of Claim (which would undoubtedly result in a county court claim being issued) since I don't know who or why they called you, but I’ll do my best to establish the facts of your situation so you can make an informed decision on works best for you in your particular circumstances.

Di

**Warwick65** · 18 June 2021, 19:15

I know it can be confusing and it is easy for us to sit here and say do x and y when it is not our debt and it is not us who might need to pay for help

I still think the right answer is to tick box D and say you dispute the debt and ask for the documents I listed before.

Essentially if you do nothing you can guarantee a claim and that has to be fought which I found very stressful. If you reply they may just realise that they do not have the documents and stop. As Di mentioned I think on another thread this was the outcome for a another AAD member recently.

IF they decide to go ahead and issue a claim and they haven't produced the documents your defence is easy and you can ask for costs because you tried to sort it. People on here can help you with what to do should that happen. If you employed a solicitor that would cost you say £600 and if the claimant decided not to move forward that would be stayed. The next course of action is to ask for a strike out but that costs money unless you are on a very low income (think universal credit rates or so I believe).

All in all I think the best course is to send the forms back. Have a read of this thread
https://all-about-debt.co.uk/forum/d...55#post1541076

You will see what can be achieved.

By the way I mean just the box D , do not fill out the I&E

**PlanB** · 18 June 2021, 19:40

Originally posted by alianza View Post

my diary for the second debt PRA are chasing me for. Balance due is £1147

16th Feb 2017 I sent a CCA request i got off the internet.

16th March 2017 bundle of documents from PRA, mainly copies of credit card statements and a photocopy of my application for the card. I sent a copy of this to Niddy and got a reply back that it was unenforceable

I've just had a quick look back at your thread and can see that NIddy deemed the documents that PRA sent you in response to your CCA Request as unenforceable.

Hold that thought

I'll pop back over the weekend to give you more food for thought.

Di

**alianza** · 19 June 2021, 19:32

I have just noticed on the letter before claim that it states ' By an assignment in writing dated 20/08/2012, the creditor assigned the debt to PRA Group'. This is factually incorrect as according to all my filed letters in 2012 the people writing to me were Aktiv Kapital and the first letter I ever had from PRA was in 2015. Does this make a difference or is it not relevant. (The same phrase was used on my other letter before claim too)
Alianza

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