PRA Group Barclaycard Debt Enforceability

[Katsikaki]

Hi Everyone,

A long time lurker but first time posting on the AAD forums.

I have a query about the PRA Group and the enforceability of a Barclaycard debt. To give you a brief outline of the history of this debt, this account was opened in 2005 and I defaulted on the agreement back in April 2016, when I encountered severe financial difficulties and enlisted Stepchange to pay most of my debts on my behalf. During 2017, the Barclaycard debt was sold to PRA Group and I have been paying the equivalent of £25 per month to them ever since.

At the beginning of May (9th), I sent a CCA request, to which they promptly replied within a few days, saying that the debt was unenforceable while they were investigating and would respond when they had the required documents.

A few days later, they sent through some statements and now, a week or so later, they have sent through a reconstituted agreement. This is from Barclaycard and consists of a first page with a letter telling me it's a reconstituted credit agreement, a blank sheet with my name and address at the time of applying for the card and some text with "YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL", followed by another page with a copy of the credit agreement from 2005 with none of my details printed on it at all and finally, what appears to be the credit agreement when the debt was sold.

In the covering letter from PRA, it does not state whether they now consider this debt to be enforceable, or if it's implied by them sending the documents. It simply asks to call their office within 10 days to come to a "mutually acceptable agreement in order to settle your outstanding balance".

Does anyone here have experience of dealing with PRA and can shed any light on to whether this debt is actually enforceable based on the documents I have received back.

I can post/send copies of the documents if required.

Thanks,
Stuart

[Right-a-wrong]

Hi Katsikaki and welcome to AAD, you have definately come to the right place - there are a wealth of people on AAD with experience of PRA, sit tight and someone will be along to help. (Everyone on here are volunteers with work/life commitments etc).

[Right-a-wrong]

Whilst you’re waiting, put PRA in the search bar above and it will take you to recent postings involving PRA group.

[The Tech Clerk]

CCA1974!s to :- webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk no scrubbing out refer to your thread here

[cymruambyth]

Hi and welcome to AAD; if you have been lurking for a while you will have seen that several of our members have successfully fought PRA.

As TC has said, send your paperwork with all the details visible to webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk with a link to this thread. This is totally secure. Once you have had a reply come back here for further guidance.
Never speak to anyone on the phone and always check here before replying to them. We may not reply immediately, but it can be worth the wait as our methods have proved successful.
Always ask questions if you are not sure about anything as knowledge is power.
Good luck

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Does anyone here have experience of dealing with PRA

Yes I do - in more ways than one


If you read this post you'll see that there is more to unenforceability than just producing a credit agreement. The debt 'owner' has to prove that they actually own the debt.

In my case (PRA v Diana Mayhew) they were unable to do that >

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

have a query about the PRA Group and the enforceability of a Barclaycard debt. To give you a brief outline of the history of this debt, this account was opened in 2005 and I defaulted on the agreement back in April 2016, when I encountered severe financial difficulties and enlisted Stepchange to pay most of my debts on my behalf. During 2017, the Barclaycard debt was sold to PRA Group and I have been paying the equivalent of £25 per month to them ever since.

At the beginning of May (9th), I sent a CCA request, to which they promptly replied within a few days, saying that the debt was unenforceable while they were investigating and would respond when they had the required documents.

A few days later, they sent through some statements and now, a week or so later, they have sent through a reconstituted agreement. This is from Barclaycard and consists of a first page with a letter telling me it's a reconstituted credit agreement, a blank sheet with my name and address at the time of applying for the card and some text with "YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL", followed by another page with a copy of the credit agreement from 2005 with none of my details printed on it at all and finally, what appears to be the credit agreement when the debt was sold.

In the covering letter from PRA, it does not state whether they now consider this debt to be enforceable, or if it's implied by them sending the documents. It simply asks to call their office within 10 days to come to a "mutually acceptable agreement in order to settle your outstanding balance".

Is there an update on this PRA situation?

Di

[Katsikaki]

Hi Di,

I've just started another topic on my overall debt but the webmaster on here deemed PRA's reconstituted agreement unenforceable due to the fact that most of the documents seemed tacked together and nothing links the CCA to me, apart from a blank sheet of paper with my name and address at the time of application printed on it.

I have no idea what is admissible in court these days when it comes to a reconstituted agreement but I can always post a redacted version if anyone is interested?

Thanks,
xxxxxx

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

Hi Di,

I've just started another topic on my overall debt but the webmaster on here deemed PRA's reconstituted agreement unenforceable due to the fact that most of the documents seemed tacked together and nothing links the CCA to me, apart from a blank sheet of paper with my name and address at the time of application printed on it.

I have no idea what is admissible in court these days when it comes to a reconstituted agreement but I can always post a redacted version if anyone is interested?

No need to post the credit agreement on the forum since Niddy has already told you that in his opinion the document produced by PRA is unenforceable

[Katsikaki]

Just a quick update on this situation. As I had paying this debt until a month or two ago, elimiating my chances of being statute barred, I decided to try a low ball f and f (5%).

This was their response.

"Thank you for your offer of £149.35. Whilst we appreciate this offer, it is below what we can accept as a full and final settlement. The settlement we can accept is a payment of £2,759.88, which means your account will be closed and we will not contact you again about it.

Where appropriate, your credit file will be updated to reflect the payment you make. Please be aware paying a settlement will not reflect as positively on your credit file as a payment in full would.

If you would like to accept this offer, we would appreciate if you could help us ensure the payment is affordable for you, by answering the following questions:

• Are your main bills (mortgage, rent, council tax, utilities) up to date?*
• If not, do you have repayment plans in place?
• Will making the proposed payment stop you from paying future main bills?
• Where will the money be coming from to make the proposed payment?
• Do you have any other debts?
  • If so, do you have repayment plans in place?

This offer is available until 6 November 2019, if you want to accept it, please contact us to set it up. I have put your account on hold for 7 days.

I regards to your dispute i can see we had a seller inquiry raised with the original creditor for the statements of account and your original credit agreement, which we have sent out to you on the 31/05/2019. If you have not received this information we can resend this to you."


Should I now just ignore them or point out that they are still in default of sending a valid CCA? Even in their original covering letter they did not specify that they had fulfilled their obligations to provide a valid agreement, unlike Lowell, they simply stated they had supplied the requested documents.

[nightwatch]

Hi,
Do not point out the fault(s) with the paperwork they sent, they will only try harder to find the original, if that is possable,
I would be tempted to just Ignore them, but please keep the post updated with anything else that turns up
NW

[Roger]

Ok.
1/ There is a difference between CCA for information purposes and proof!
2/ They have confirmed sending reconstituted UE documents that Niddy has deemed UE

3/ Typical of PRA - They want every penny!!
PRA would have paid pennies in the pound to Barclaycard! Barclaycard would have tax relief on the Bad Debt!
PRA are not a Charity but believe in fleecing the so called uncreditworthy to the full face value of a Debt!

4/ Don't reply because that restarts the Statute clock!
5/ Your offer for F&F was in good Faith. The ball is in any event in their hands!

As nightwatch points out keep AAD up to date (can you please use the Diary format - it helps the MODS and yourself taking control of your debts).

• Type of account (credit card/loan)
• Date commenced (ideally before Apr 2007)
• Approx balance
• Date last paid (approximate date you last made a FULL payment)
• Are you on arrangement or not paying
• Status (default/in arrears/up-to-date)
• Account owner (who is writing to you, a DCA or the lender)

Do you have any other Debts?

[Katsikaki]

Do you have any other Debts?

Yes, I do have other debts. I have listed them on this thread:

https://all-about-debt.co.uk/forum/d...final-payments

I have offered token f and f to the UE debts, as I have been paying them up until recently through Stepchange and therefore the Statute clock has already been reset. I have offered slightly more to the enforceable debts. If they decline, then I will have to continue with my token monthly payments until such time that is no longer financially viable for them to have me on their books. At my current rate, it would take me 45 years to pay off my debts, so I'm offering them a get out now.

In all honesty, I'd rather have as many accounts satisfied as possible, to prevent the issue of them ever rearing their ugly heads again in the future.

[Roger]

The trouble you will have is favouring some creditors over others!

You probably did this with Stepchange at the beginning.
The formulae is to calculate your surplus monies after providing for Rent, mortgage, fuel, rates , food, etc.. Here the Citzens Advice Bureau can be very helpful.
From your surplus you apportion payments as a percentage of individual debt / whole debt.

If Creditors see Debts being repaid you risk alerting the rest! Do you see this?

I do realise that you want to see this all go away as well as deal openly and honestly with Creditors.
But the better route actually is to NOT pay the UE anything because these are Unenforcible . Instead save and build up your money so that you have a contingency! In your pocket rather than the likes of PRA!

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

I decided to try a low ball f and f (5%).

This was their response. . . . .

Should I now just ignore them or point out that they are still in default of sending a valid CCA? Even in their original covering letter they did not specify that they had fulfilled their obligations to provide a valid agreement, unlike Lowell, they simply stated they had supplied the requested documents.

Well they would say that wouldn't they

By making an offer to settle you've started a conversation which implies you're willing and able to pay (albeit not enough). They might even check your CRA file to assess your financial situation. Do you own a property with a mortgage which would be visible on your CRA file?

This debt has been deemed unenforceable so ignore PRA's correspondence unless you are sent a Letter of Claim.

Debt purchasers never tire of banking your money however small the payments. They deal with hundreds of thousands of debtors, so even if they're only receiving £1 token payments from each of them, they're still generating a substantial income effortlessly.

Di