PRA enforceable Debt??

[Moomyscoob]

Hiya, i recently sent off Full and final settlement offers to all our creditors offering about 30%, most came back and rejected with a counter offer of about a 20% discount - i then read on here about CCA requests so i sent those off to all creditors in the hope they couldnt provide i could go back and try again with my offer (i know i should have done it the other way around but i am very new to all this and only read up about the CCA after the event of sending the full and finals)- Capquest agreed in writing to the 30% offer which i have paid, and others have placed accounts on hold while they find information. PRA who have purchased 2 barclaycard accounts have responded on 1 account with a letter from Barclays and a reconstituted agreement including short form cancellation, historic terms, varied terms - they then write at the bottom of the letter that the statement of account is below and literally only write the current credit limit is 0, the balance is xxxx and due to the current status of your account the full outstanding balance is now due (this is on the barclaycard letter, although the debt was sold to PRA in 2015 why are barclays still claiming the full balance is due?).

The said agreement is then just on plain white paper with my name and address at the top along with barclays name and address, but nowhere does it state my credit card number, credit limit, date agreement was taken out etc so this could be anyone's agreement - i might have 10 barclays agreements but how would i know that this relates to the one in question, how is this legitimate as other than my name and address there is nothing to link these conditions to that account?

I requested the CCA as i have been paying the DMP for over 5 years now and have been gifted an amount of money from my dad that allows us to pay off our debts, and i have paid more off to what i now owe and i don't want to be paying for another 5 years if i leave the DMP running so i wanted to have leverage to go back and say my offer of 30% still stands but now they think they have satisfied my request are they going to play hardball?

We have a larger PRA barclays debt that i am now worried they are going to do the same and i am going to end up paying a lot more than these debt companies bought it for!!

Any advice would be much appreciated, Thankyou

[cymruambyth]

Hi and welcome to AAD. I have deleted your duplicate posts so that all help is given on 1 thread.

I suggest you send the agreement received to webmaster@all-about-debt.co.uk with a link to this thread, do not black out any details. This is totally secure and is only viewed by the site owner who will let you know if the agreement is legally enforceable.

You then need to make a separate post for each debt giving the following information:

Type of account (credit card/loan)

Date commenced

Approximate balance

Date last payment was made - approximate date last full payment was made

Are you on an arrangement or not paying

Status (default/arrangement/up to date)

Account owner

This information will help posters know the status of your accounts and the best advice to give. You will be asked lots of questions, not because we are nosy but to ensure the correct help is given. Try to check on the site before contacting or responding to anyone as we have set processes which have proven successful.

Good luck and do not be afraid to ask any questions - you need to understand what is happening.

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

the statement of account is below and literally only write the current credit limit is 0, the balance is xxxx and due to the current status of your account the full outstanding balance is now due (this is on the barclaycard letter, although the debt was sold to PRA in 2015 why are barclays still claiming the full balance is due?).

I requested the CCA as i have been paying the DMP for over 5 years now and have been gifted an amount of money from my dad that allows us to pay off our debts

Hello

The outstanding balance with Barclaycard is £0 because the debt has been assigned to PRA so I'm not sure why you have a letter from them (Barclaycard) chasing £7k when PRA are the debt owners. Or have I misunderstood your post?

As Cym has said make a separate post on this thread for each of your debts so you can get specific help with them one at a time as no two debts are the same so the history of the account matters.

It would be a pity to use your father's money to pay a debt if it is not owed in law. 'Unenforceability' is a legal argument not a moral argument.

Di

[Warwick65]

Hi

Just something I picked up from your post which I admit I have not read closely
You seem to ask if it is ok for a CCA Request not to have signatures, credit limits or card numbers on. Well yes it is although there are many other things that it should contain.

Requests under S77/78 are for information purposes only and can be reconstituted. Depending on when the cards were taken out will also have an impact on just how valid they are.

As Di has said, and I leave the legal stuff to her , I can only talk from my own experience

Unenforceability is about legal arguments , I had a credit card and when they sent me the CCA it was 100% legit ( or that's what my untrained eye thought). However in court (yes it did come to that) they lost because there was no defat notice

That was the only 1 of my 20 something debts that went to court, the rest are now all happily statute barred, many by at least a year. I had two with Natwest and they sent me good agreements, they then sold the debts to Cabot so I sent new CCA requests which they could not find so there was nothing they could do about it. I was so upset (not).

If I were you, I would set up an enforceability diary with the following info for each account - I post for each not one thread if that makes sense

Name of Account

When originally opened

Amount Owing

When last payment (of any kind) was made

Who now owns the debt (this may not be who is writing to you)

Has the account been defaulted



I think that's the lot.


Then and this is up to you
I keep copies of all letters sent and received including scans and print outs of proof of deliveries etc

I have 1 copy in a filing cabinet

I scan all letters I receive and send , I then number them (for example 1, CCA Request; 2 CCA response; 3 Notice of sums in arrears; 4 default notice- you get the idea). Finally I have them all backed up into the cloud (I use google drive) . That way I have 3 copies, a hard one, one on my laptop and 1 in the cloud . That way, whenever I have a wobble and wonder when something was sent I can have a quick look - it also helped when the claim was issued, I could just share that 1 folder with Di and Joanna Connolly - saved me sending stuff through the post

Hope my massive post helps

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

PRA who have purchased 2 barclaycard accounts have responded on 1 account with a letter from Barclays and a reconstituted agreement including short form cancellation, historic terms, varied terms . . . The said agreement is then just on plain white paper with my name and address at the top along with barclays name and address, but nowhere does it state my credit card number, credit limit, date agreement was taken out etc so this could be anyone's agreement . . .

. . . . We have a larger PRA barclays debt that i am now worried they are going to do the same

Did you email Niddy (forum owner) for an opinion on the credit agreement PRA sent you in response to your s77/78 CCA Request, and if so what was the verdict?

When you last posted PRA had only sent you a response to one of your s 77/78 CCA Requests for one of your Barclaycards - have they now responded to the other one?

And were both these accounts originally with Barclaycard or could you have opened either/both of them with Egg, Goldfish, Monument, Morgan Stanley Dean Witter etc?

Di

[Green2209]

Hi there,
I'm pretty new to the platform and was just having a look around and came across your post! As I'm a little late on commenting on this post I'm not sure if this will be relevant anymore. I recently had the help of a company called xxxxxxxxxxxxx who specialise in consumer debt and claimant companies such as PRA. They worked with me and it turned out around £7000 of my debt was unenforceable and the claimant company (Cabot) ended up abandoning the claim. I'm pretty sure these guys could help you with this. Their website xxxxxxxxxxxxx it might be worth giving them a call or filling in the form and one of their customer service team will get back to you. A lady called xxxxxxxxx helped me and she was great. Hope you get this sorted.
Thanks!

[Moomyscoob]

Thanks all for the replies, sorry I haven't replied sooner I hadn't seen until now the replies.

Yes I had a reply from niddy that as there weren't signatures just terms it was unenforceable, I went back to them to state this and they just replied saying yes it is, won't accept anything less than 80%!

This barclaycard was taken out via moneysupermarket and only ever been barclaycard, the other barclaycard was taken out in 2010 and I seem to remember it was directly off them not via anyone else and we haven't heard anything back yet about if they have found the CCA and this one is also with PRA.

How can I defend that the CCA they have sent me is unenforceable, it's my word against theirs and they aren't budging, they are quite happy to keep getting payments because I think they see in their eyes I cant afford to settle at what they want, know I'm settling off others leaving me better off a month as I don't have all the creditors on my DMP payment anymore so have more disposable income!

Regarding the other PRA barclaycard one I've not had CCA back on, I really don't want to just sit and not do anything ignoring I have the debt until they find CCA and it take months and months as ideally we want to be trying for a mortgage soon (we have sourced a mortgage with a broker who has got a lender happy with our situation at a really good rate) and I don't want this debt hanging about, I have the money to pay it off just not in full so I want a partial settlement and I want it gotten rid of, but I equally don't want to pay more than I should. If they don't come back soon do i write back to them and say as they haven't come back to me with anything I see the debt as unenforceable so would they accept xxxx?

Robinson way have just accepted 60% discount on an agreement they sent me the full signed agreement for, so it annoys me that if one can settle for that with actual signed copy agreements, why after giving me some rubbish excuse for an agreement only offer 20% discount!

I am in conversations with the others and they re being pretty amenable so far so its really only PRA I have the issue with!

I have just cancelled my DMP with stepchange to self manage so I can control who gets what as stepchange kept giving the remaining creditors more when I paid one off which doesn't help!

What should I do, do I need to send what I've received as their idea of credit agreements onto this post so you can see what they've sent, forgive my ignorance I've never posted on here before.

Thanks

[The Tech Clerk]

stay off the phone, they are not interested, they know you are worried as you have contacted them, talk to:- Diana Mayhew no initial cost and sure you will get the best way forward,

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

I had a reply from niddy that as there weren't signatures just terms it was unenforceable, I went back to them to state this and they just replied saying yes it is, won't accept anything less than 80%!

This barclaycard was taken out via moneysupermarket and only ever been barclaycard, the other barclaycard was taken out in 2010 and I seem to remember it was directly off them not via anyone else and we haven't heard anything back yet about if they have found the CCA and this one is also with PRA.

How can I defend that the CCA they have sent me is unenforceable, it's my word against theirs and they aren't budging, they are quite happy to keep getting payments because I think they see in their eyes I cant afford to settle at what they want, know I'm settling off others leaving me better off a month as I don't have all the creditors on my DMP payment anymore so have more disposable income!

Regarding the other PRA barclaycard one I've not had CCA back on, I really don't want to just sit and not do anything ignoring I have the debt until they find CCA and it take months and months as ideally we want to be trying for a mortgage soon (we have sourced a mortgage with a broker who has got a lender happy with our situation at a really good rate) and I don't want this debt hanging about, I have the money to pay it off just not in full so I want a partial settlement and I want it gotten rid of, but I equally don't want to pay more than I should. If they don't come back soon do i write back to them and say as they haven't come back to me with anything I see the debt as unenforceable so would they accept xxxx?

Robinson way have just accepted 60% discount on an agreement they sent me the full signed agreement for, so it annoys me that if one can settle for that with actual signed copy agreements, why after giving me some rubbish excuse for an agreement only offer 20% discount!

I am in conversations with the others and they re being pretty amenable so far so its really only PRA I have the issue with!

I have just cancelled my DMP with stepchange to self manage so I can control who gets what as stepchange kept giving the remaining creditors more when I paid one off which doesn't help!

What should I do, do I need to send what I've received as their idea of credit agreements onto this post so you can see what they've sent, forgive my ignorance I've never posted on here before.

*and breathe*

Let's break your situation down into bite-sized chunks. One step at a time and all that.

I'm no stranger to PRA claims (PRA v Diana Mayhew) so read this post which may hopefully help you to focus and then I'll help you to get a strategy in place to move forward >

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”


So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.


Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Di

[Moomyscoob]

Thankyou, i have had a good read of that and it has made me more positive - what are my routes to move forward with the PRA debt they claim is enforceable? The balance on this one is about £1550. Is there things that are noticeable to see if what has been sent is in fact unenforceable?

It is making me think that as PRA with the other barclaycard haven't come back yet, they cant find the CCA, but as they are being so hard on the other, whats to stop them doing the same with this one that has the higher balance of £5330.

Thanks

[The Tech Clerk]

just wait and see regarding the CCA , their problem, stop over thinking!

[Joanna Connolly Solicitors]

How can I defend that the CCA they have sent me is unenforceable, it's my word against theirs and they aren't budging, they are quite happy to keep getting payments because I think they see in their eyes I cant afford to settle at what they want, know I'm settling off others leaving me better off a month as I don't have all the creditors on my DMP payment anymore so have more disposable income!

I think you've summed up the situation neatly

As long as you are engaging with PRA (and paying them each month) they have no motivation to offer to settle for anything less than 80%.

Only a Judge can rule a credit agreement 'unenforceable' so a debt purchaser can continue to chase you for the full amount owed until something happens to make them reconsider their stance. You can tell them they're wrong until you're blue in the face, but I'm afraid it won't make any difference.

And even if the credit agreement is unenforceable today, it could become enforceable tomorrow if they are able to remedy the flaws especially if you help them by pointing out what's wrong (so they can put it right).

This is why it's important to know the full story in order to help you. The forum has asked you to make a separate post for each debt on this thread so any suggestions can be given in context. I agree with that.

I look forward to helping you as soon as there are a few more facts to work with.

Di