Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

^^^^ I've been thinking about this. If some of the joint debts are deemed UE that will help WG's daughter as well as her ex because he'll then have more disposable income to contribute towards the upbringing of their mutual child

CSA don't take into account the outgoings like that i.e. revolving credit etc (do they?) and anyway, he aint paying the debt is he?

[WorriedGrandma]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

I've read everything you've said and I can identify with the sadness all around you at the moment I would gladly slap any bloke who made my daughter unhappy even though I know she can be quite high maintenance to live with at times

I don't know the personalities involved but you should feel encouraged by the fact that (from what you say) your daughter's ex is paying more than the CSA requires, has two jobs to make ends meat, does the school run when he can (presumably because he can't do any more while he is supporting two jobs), and has his daughter to stay with him every other weekend from Friday onwards. That last point is most important because if this was a divorce situation then the court may adjust maintenance etc to reflect the fact that he provides for his daughter's financial needs on several days a month, and as we all know kids eat a lot! There are probably trips to the cinema etc too.

I always want to help my daughter when she gets in a pickle but the balance I have struck is letting her know I'm there if she needs me with my cheque book open, but I won't actually do anything unless she invites me into her crazy world. I see the fact that she can manage without me as a compliment, because it means I have brought her up to be independant - and sometimes I have to suffer the consequences of that too

Thank you PlanB. I know that what I'm about to say is totally irrelevant (and off the point) to actions we need to take, but I'm pretty sure he is not paying more than the CSA requires. I'm not certain, but I recall they say he should pay £52 per week unless his daughter stays with him overnight (excluding holidays?) for more than 104 nights per year. I, wrongly, said she stayed with him from Friday. He, currently, takes her to his mother's on Friday evening where she stays overnight. My granddaughter stays only one night (Saturday) with her father, twice a month.

The approach you take with your daughter is exactly how I used to be with mine. She became downtrodden living with her ex. I recall giving them the money for plumbers' bills, electricians' bills, a new back door, her ex's car insurance, etc..

When they bought their house (January 2007), their only debt (aside from the mortgage) was the £15k to Lloyds. They always had a joint bank account. After juggling the bills he considered the rest of the money to be his. My daughter's only pair of work shoes had holes in them. In June 2008, when they were away, because he had "treated her" to a holiday in Egypt, I bought, on their behalf, a little bike, which was to be their daughter's birthday present from them. They were going to repay me. It was then, in June 2008, (just 18 months later) my daughter and I found the debts had risen to over £31k. Her ex intended to do a private/paid-for DMP. My daughter and I went to the CAB. He was anxious/angry/frightened and refused to embark on a CAB DMP. So they continued to pay £800 per month to the creditors. During 2009 I contacted NationalDebtline (the free one?) and gave my daughter information (and cashed in a useless insurance policy to pay £2000 off one of the credit cards that had been put in her name).

So, by June 2010, they had done some balance transfers, converted to loans, I had thrown £2,000 at it, and they then owed £30k, because of the continued colossal charges.

Anyway, I acknowledge the above does not effect the current plan. I'm still trying to pin my daughter down to read this thread and indicate when I can make a solicitor appointment.

[PlanB]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

The CSA calculation does not take any expenditure into account (not even the basics such as council tax and rent) of either parent since it is not 'needs based'. It's a straight calculation of 15% of the non-resident's net income for one child (20% for 2 children and so on). That figure is then recalculated according to the number of nights per year (if any) that the child stays with the non-resident parent, which would be a 7% reduction of the initial figure in this case (i.e. 2 nights every other weekend).

I believe that there can be some advantages of asking the CSA to make a formal calculation (letter) because all CSA payments are disregarded when it comes to claiming benefits. They are also disregarded for tax purposes and since WG's daughter is currently in work this may be helpful.

I also understand that if you are unfortunate enough to get a CCJ then any CSA payments you make be obliged to make may be considered when the court determins the monthly amount you can afford to pay to the creditor.

The CSA offer two levels of 'service'. The Calculation Only system simply works out the statutory amount due and then both parents are informed by letter and the file is closed (on the surface). There is also a Calculation and Collection service which will pursue absent parents for payment.

If WG rings the CSA Helpline on 08457 133 133 she can find out more background. There is also an online calculator on the Direct.Gov website.

None of this would stop a non-residential parent making voluntary payments over and above the CSA calculation which seems to be the case with WG's daughter. So if her ex's joint debts were deemed to be UE I still think this may genuinely benefit them both. After all with the debts gone then maybe the ex will not seek to have the house sold since WG says he only wanted that to happen to clear the debt. With the debts gone (or reduced to a more manageable amount) then the ex may rethink his stance for the sake of his child

[PlanB]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Our posts have crossed in cyberspace - you must be psychic, mind you most Mums are ! I'll have a read of what you've said and post back a bit later

[LooLoo]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Hi WG et all

sorry not been around for a few days.

As I have said I went through a very acrimonious divorce (only now on speaking terms) and Mr Loo went through a divorce that inolved children (without involving the CSA I might add) - so any questions that I can help out on on those issues please feel free to pick my brains, as I know only too well how expensive things get with solicitors inovled. Mr Loo and his ex did most of their negotiations through mediation which if both parties are "amicablish..." works out a lot cheaper.

You are a such a lovely mother and I am sure your daughter appreciates everything you are doing for her and might I add (esp from all the other posts so far) you are definatly in the right place!)

If you daughter can read the thread it might help her - it also might help if she had a look around the site and she will realise a lot of people are in similar situations - a break up of a relationship and in debt - the main thing neither you nor her are alone

LL
x

[PlanB]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

When they bought their house (January 2007), their only debt (aside from the mortgage) was the £15k to Lloyds. They always had a joint bank account. . . . It was then, in June 2008, (just 18 months later) my daughter and I found the debts had risen to over £31k. Her ex intended to do a private/paid-for DMP. My daughter and I went to the CAB. He was anxious/angry/frightened and refused to embark on a CAB DMP. So they continued to pay £800 per month to the creditors. During 2009 I contacted NationalDebtline (the free one?) and gave my daughter information (and cashed in a useless insurance policy to pay £2000 off one of the credit cards that had been put in her name).

So, by June 2010, they had done some balance transfers, converted to loans, I had thrown £2,000 at it, and they then owed £30k, because of the continued colossal charges.
.

Just a quick thought, there are people on this site who know how to tackle unfair charges on loans and bank accounts so maybe someone else will step in and help you with that issue. We don't like banks who overcharge Reducing the joint debts has got to be good news for your daughter even if it benefits her ex too. They're in this together until they're not in the eyes of the creditors.

[PlanB]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Not much chance of UE here as they are all very recent - post APR 2007. All except one.

Isn't that the one for £15k with Lloyds TSB who have a reputation for being flaky with their paperwork

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

We need to stop jumping to wild conclusions and really, speak to the daughter.

This (above posts) is confusing me. It started well but now this seems to be CSA thread???

Lets stick to the main bits - forget CSA; different issue.

Main issues;

1. Mortgage
2. Sole debts
3. Joint debts

That's it why are we still chattering CSA nonsense?

[PlanB]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

It's a holistic approach.

In my humble view when you are faced with unravelling the joint finances of an ended relationship absolutely everything becomes relevant, even who paid for the dog food (yes, we did argue over that too). It becomes a Money-In-Money-Out exercise. WG feels strongly about what she has contributed over the years too.

I agree with LooLoo that mediation allows for these seemingly trivialities to be discussed and then dismissed, but it gets all the personal stuff out in the open. In this case there appears to be question marks over who should morally pay off which debts and why. And mediation is cheap in comparison to lawyers.

I hoped that a bit of info on how the CSA works would help others reading this thread who may not have known since it was certainly news to me that the statutory figure is as low as 15% of net income. A mother can't possibly bring up a child on such a pathetic amount It wasn't intended to be nonsense

[Dea-dea]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Hi All, and thank you for all your help on my situation!!!

I am WorriedGrandma's daughter I've now read through all of the information, and I think I've understood most of it!

I'm gonna go through and re-read it (accompanied by hot beverage) and will post the answers to the questions I think I spotted.

Thank you all again soooooooooooo much x

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Hiya & welcome

Ask any questions - no need to feel like we're asking 1001 questions; when really why not ask us questions that you WANT answering.....

We can only but help

[PlanB]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Welcome to the debate which has been all about you in your absence which my daughter (same age as you) would say is "so annoying" and some other stuff which couldn't even be repeated on this site Trust me (as a Mum) to know that your mother has your best interests at heart but from a different perspective. It's what we Mums do

Please feel free to speak about all the emotional baggage involved because that really is relevant and possibly key to getting this situation sorted.

Take care and no hurry

[WorriedGrandma]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Thank you All,

I'm pleased my daughter, Dea-dea, has now read the thread. I stay at her home most of the time. From Thursday evening until tomorrow I am at my home (which I'm selling), a couple of hours away, sorting out what needs binning, etc.

I thought she might read the thread while I was away. She phoned me a couple of hours ago (about something unrelated) and, when I asked her, said she didn't think she had any questions.

[PriorityOne]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

Hi everyone...

I've just read through this thread quickly and wanted to share some thoughts... apologies for repeating any advice already given. missing anything, or stating the bleedin' obvious.... etc..... lol

If this is a joint mortgage with the nasty ex , then he will have some claim on any equity (as has already been said) just the same as he'd have joint liability for any shortfall in mortgage payments, etc. if the situation was less favourable. Although there is is equity in the house at the moment, he's highly unlikely to get any joy from pushing you for a sale to get his hands on money (through solicitors or otherwise) if that would leave his child homeless... which gives you short-term security only.

The downside of living under a cloud of short-term security is that you would still be tied to him (so to speak) for as long as you live in that house and, if he decides that he isn't going to pay his half of the mortgage at some point in the future.... when he meets someone else for example, then it would cause a horrendous amount of stress for you later on down the line, not to mention the hassle of claiming Benefits and establishing what he would/should contribute, etc, should you ever be in that position.

Another thing to consider is that you will, at some point, meet someone else yourself and if you are still tied to the ex financially; in a property that you jointly own, then he might decide to play fun and games just for the Hell of stopping you from moving on with your life... and try to dictate terms to you; who you can stay, etc; all of which would make your life miserable, affect your child further and make is damned hard for you to have a co-habiting/married relationship.

So.... my advice to you would be to sell the house you're currently in, split the equity whichever way you decide to and start again with a new property in your sole name (as Niddy suggests below). That way, he will have no claim on you for anything, you will have control of your own life; which is priceless..... and he'll be left to sort out his own debts (or not... who cares anyway?).

In an ideal world, why doesn't she put it up for sale and just break all ties - sell it and then buy again with your assistance and a new lower mortgage? Wouldn't that be the best option all round and then she doesn't need to give the ex bugger all and she can then negotiate her liabilities to get them cleared leaving the joint and his debts alone. Obviously if the joint ones come after her after she moves then that's a bridge we'll need to cross later.

I do understand that it might make you physically sick to pay him any equity in light of the fact that you've been landed with most of these debts and that you made the bulk of the mortgage payments but in my opinion, you will have greater peace of mind dealing with these debts from a new home that he can no longer influence.

I was in a similar situation to you many years ago and sometimes, you just have to cut your losses, accept you've been an idiot/made a huge mistake (me; not you... ), stand up straight, break free and start again.

You have a child together, so will never be free from him completely but it's important that your child sees you grow up as a strong woman and not see his/her mum manipulated and bullied for years to come by a man who still has a financial interest in the home. In my own case, I paid the bulk of my mortgage with the ex as well.... so do understand your frustration.... but, you are in an enviable position in that you have someone to help you start again. Just make sure you don't tell him that! He doesn't need to know your business.

why not sell up and get that clean break then no matter what the house will always be her own with no claim from anyone.

Yes.... it still does seem the best option....

Having started a relationship with the latest b*****d, at the end of 2002, they were renting, until buying the current house in January 2007. My daughter stayed off work for over a year after the birth of my granddaughter (June 2004). Some?/much? of the money from the house-sale ^^ was used to pay rent in advance (6 months? a year?). I recall her ex-partner, also, demanded (and got) a huge TV.

Hmmm.... sounds a bit like my ex.

Just to add.... I lost thousands during and at the end of our relationship (not married either) BUT karma is a wonderful thing. Nowadays, he owes in excess of £100K.... while I now owe nothing. So you see, there is light at the end of the tunnel providing you take the controls back.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: Want help/advice with daughter's debts please.

P1 - brilliant. Thanks