FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

[Bill-K]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Hi DTMM, and thanks Di.

Yes - they are allowed to use your PPI redress to offset an outstanding balance on the account to which the claim relates, but any 8% simple ('compensatory') interest should be refunded directly to you. However, this interest is only awarded if the account balance in any month would have been in credit if the PPI had not been sold. This is (or should be) calculated by using the 'Notional Balance' principle. There are two spreadsheets for calculating your expected redress offer (using the Notional Balance) here:-

http://forums.all-about-debt.co.uk/s...Redress-Offers

I hope one of them will help with this.

[DoTheyMeanMe]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Hi Bill and thank you.

Perhaps the best thing to do here is ask your advice as to whether or not I am flogging a dead horse. Based on that, I will do whatever is necessary.

The credit card was taken in 1998 and defaulted and terminated in 2006 with a balance of £6500.
No interest was added after that date.
The balance has been whittled down to about £5000.
The PPI compensation payment of about £4,600 has now been credited to the account, leaving a balance of £300+.

Using my own spreadsheet based on the FOS example (not as accurate as yours will be, I am sure) I calculate the simple interest to only be £15.11 (at termination date).

Presumably, as no interest was added after the termination date, their payout will be limited to: PPI charges + accrued interest on those charges + £15.11.

It would have been nice to get 8% simple from the termination date up to the payment date but presumably that is not how it works. Or am I wrong?

Your time and advice is very much appreciated.

DTMM

[ken100464]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Thats the thing DTMM 8% is only payable if the notional balance is in credit.

This is where we have all been taking the banks word for it and thinking they have been calculating correctly. But evidence is starting to appear that some banks are using the FOS and the FOS way of doing things to make redress payments look legitimate.

If you have a feeling that something is wrong demand the calculations off Nat Pest. If they wont give it you then FOS will order them given to you. You are supposed to be able to check your redress but banks dont give you anything to check against.

Once you have the calculations you should be able to put the figures they used through Bills spreadie and see if they are anything like. (Banks have this nasty habit of forgetting charges should come back if they are due to PPI) You may find they are making unfair assumptions on those missing years or you may find they actually did have your data all along but just chose not to complete your SAR thus breaching the DPA.

Nat Pest are one of the banks caught in this alternative redress scandal so wouldnt put it past then trying other wheezes.

[Bill-K]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Well done for devising your own spreadsheet. Mine are based on the FSA/FCA PPI Redress Handbook rules in Appendix 2 of Policy Statement PS10/12 - in this case, Example 6. You may be able to simply copy & paste the data columns from your spready to mine in order to make a comparison. If mine and yours agree that your redress offer is too low, then we have a good argument to make.

As Ken says, it is very common for lenders to make 'erroneous' offers which are substantially lower than they should be, so I would say that this is deffo worth looking into. If the final 'Notional' balance after deducting the PPI redress is still a debit amount (approx. £300+ at present), then no further 8% will be added. However, if your calcs are correct and the redress is about £3K short then you should receive 8% p.a. on the 'Notional' £3K credit balance from the date of the final repayment, plus extra 8% interest during the period of the account.

As a very rough calc., if your PPI redress should have been £7.5K, then your Notional Balance at termination in 2006 will have been £1K in credit. 8 years @ 8% simple interest would be 64% of £1K, which is £640. If the balance was reduced by a further £1.5K after 4 years, then that would attract a further £480, making a total of £1120. If you also reclaim penalties, and add further 8% to the redress for these, as well as increased Notional 8%, then this could quite possibly increase the claim by £1.5K or even more.

If you are prepared to post your final spreadsheet up here (anonymised of course) - then I'll be glad to check it out - or alternatively PM me and attach it privately.

[DoTheyMeanMe]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Thats the thing DTMM 8% is only payable if the notional balance is in credit.

This is where we have all been taking the banks word for it and thinking they have been calculating correctly. But evidence is starting to appear that some banks are using the FOS and the FOS way of doing things to make redress payments look legitimate.

If you have a feeling that something is wrong demand the calculations off Nat Pest. If they wont give it you then FOS will order them given to you. You are supposed to be able to check your redress but banks dont give you anything to check against.

Once you have the calculations you should be able to put the figures they used through Bills spreadie and see if they are anything like. (Banks have this nasty habit of forgetting charges should come back if they are due to PPI) You may find they are making unfair assumptions on those missing years or you may find they actually did have your data all along but just chose not to complete your SAR thus breaching the DPA.

Nat Pest are one of the banks caught in this alternative redress scandal so wouldnt put it past then trying other wheezes.

Thanks Ken. We think along the same lines, is it mutual distrust of someone else?
It will be interesting to see if they did withhold some statements from the SAR - I wouldn't be surprised. The letter requiring a full breakdown went yesterday

Well done for devising your own spreadsheet. Mine are based on the FSA/FCA PPI Redress Handbook rules in Appendix 2 of Policy Statement PS10/12 - in this case, Example 6. You may be able to simply copy & paste the data columns from your spready to mine in order to make a comparison. If mine and yours agree that your redress offer is too low, then we have a good argument to make.

As Ken says, it is very common for lenders to make 'erroneous' offers which are substantially lower than they should be, so I would say that this is deffo worth looking into. If the final 'Notional' balance after deducting the PPI redress is still a debit amount (approx. £300+ at present), then no further 8% will be added. However, if your calcs are correct and the redress is about £3K short then you should receive 8% p.a. on the 'Notional' £3K credit balance from the date of the final repayment, plus extra 8% interest during the period of the account.

As a very rough calc., if your PPI redress should have been £7.5K, then your Notional Balance at termination in 2006 will have been £1K in credit. 8 years @ 8% simple interest would be 64% of £1K, which is £640. If the balance was reduced by a further £1.5K after 4 years, then that would attract a further £480, making a total of £1120. If you also reclaim penalties, and add further 8% to the redress for these, as well as increased Notional 8%, then this could quite possibly increase the claim by £1.5K or even more.

If you are prepared to post your final spreadsheet up here (anonymised of course) - then I'll be glad to check it out - or alternatively PM me and attach it privately.

Bill, thanks for clarifying things - I have it now - put my slowness down to a 'senior moment' please. As I said above, the letter has gone to NatWest so we will see what comes back.
The purpose of the exercise was to get a big enough PPI settlement to clear the card balance, which it has almost done. Anything over and above this would be an extra.

Thanks again to you both.

[ken100464]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Good luck DTMM.

From my experience Bills spreadsheets once you have done the boring inputting really do show up how badly wrong they are getting things. But of course as consumers we dint really have the ability to check and it now seems no one else was. The banks worked this out but hopefully as more and more consumers realise they been diddled once again then a scandal out of a scandal will ensue on this morally bankrupt industry.

[Bill-K]

Re: FOS refuse appeal - NatWest - help needed.

Senior moments come thick and fast these days, DTMM, so I can sympathise with you !!!

As Ken says, once you have got past the tedious task of punching in all the data, the rest is usually pretty easy. As you have already done this with your own spready, then you should be able to simply copy & paste each column into other spreadies after that.

Thanks for your kind words, Ken. As you say, the continuing scandalous behaviour of the banks was never a joke - but it has gone well beyond that now. Anthony Browne seems about as much use to bank customers as Angela Knight was, and the BBA is still about as useful as a chocolate sex toy.