Unlimited Guarantee

[greymatter]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Hi Garlok
I read the following link:http://www.simply-docs.co.uk/documen...?documentID=34 as suggested by you,thanks.However this does appear to contradict the following extract from Business Link :
Bank finance

Providing a guarantee for your loan

If your bank agrees to lend you money, it may require a guarantee. A guarantee is a promise by a person or an entity to assume a debt obligation in the event of non-payment by the borrower. Your loan agreement should make it clear exactly what security the bank needs.

Guarantees can be provided by:

• you, if you run a limited company
• other people involved in the business

Banks may also ask another person or business to act as a guarantor. If you cannot meet your repayments, the guarantor may have to pay part or all of the loan or interest.
If you operate a limited company, banks and major creditors will usually require personal guarantees from the company directors or major shareholders.
Limited liability protects shareholders from being sued by the business' creditors for their personal assets. Where a personal guarantee for a bank loan is issued, the guarantor can be held personally liable for the debt.
If possible, ensure that personal guarantees only apply to specific debts or loans as a widely drawn guarantee would render you liable for all of the losses of the business up to the amount of the guarantee. Under the lending code, guarantees given in support of bank account borrowing must not be for an unlimited amount.

So which one is correct? My money has got to be on the one issued by the BBA surely.
Anyway I thought I would put this into the mix as the more info the better.
GM

[garlok]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

As I said GM, the problem lies in the fact that the lending code, the BBA and anything they say is purely a VOLUNTARY subscription that they pay only lip service to. The banks will, if it is to their advantage, just ignore it as they do with Statutory consumer legislation. They will almost always move you over into a situation which is based on common Law and not Statute Law or regulatory constraints. It is assumed that if you are a director of a limited company, you are intelligent enough to understand what you are siging up to. I know most of us don't but they will always wherever possible throw caveat emptor at you.

When it comes to the finance sector I learned my lesson a while back and always assume the very worst of them. Its a bit like hospital consultants, I always assume they are liars and lying to me and about me until such times as that is proven differnently to my satisfaction. You are unlikely to be disappointed or disillusioned by any outcome.

Anything voluntary assume is not going to happen, only anything that you can back up with Law and court decisions is likely to have any effect.

If you feel that you have a just grievance then start as I did by writing to the CEO at Churchill Place and creating mayhem being as nasty as you dare. You then get handed to a customer relationship manager working on the CEO's team. The problem is these jokers will then if at all possible hand it over to some one else (in our case the Directors office at Barclaycard) to ensure that nothing sticks to them or their career.

Barclays will play the hardest ball they can with you and you have to prepare for that. My best suggestion is to get some professional help if you want to fight this. Tell them you are stopping paying and get some negotiations going to settle on a minimal F & F. Thats essentially what we did but it has to be your choice and there is always an element of risk attached to all of it.

If you don't then you will continue to pay forever and see nothing out of it or if you don't get it right they will throw Penny v Cole (Pinnel case) at you dating from 1602, yes 1602, whereby Sir Edward Coke opined that a debt can never be discharged by partial settlement of the full amount. That we know no longer remains completely true but it is used almost on a daily basis across a broad spectrum to enslave people like yourself and then they will attack any estate you leave if anything remains outstanding on your demise.

Plan for the worst and anything you achieve is a bonus.

regards
Garlok

[greymatter]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Thanks Garlok
Understood.I really need time to think on this one.
GM

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

GM, you did not answer my emailed question of whether the copy of the agreement had been witnessed at the time of signing - but I'd also like to know why your copy seems to bear neither any signature or any details of the witness.

[greymatter]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Sorry CC
I honestly cannot recall signing or having it witnessed,I certainly did not go to the Bank as the Manager came to my office.
The copy I have is not signed or witnessed .Apart from my typed name blocked out(By me) the rest is exactly as you see it.
If the original was signed and witnessed my unsigned unwitnessed copy is all I received.
Apologies for the delay CC.
GM

Looking thro my mail I dont see your PM .CC would you be so kind as to resend this to me as its a bit concerning when emails disappear into the ether!
Many thanks
GM

[greymatter]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Just as a backup could you recommend a suitable solicitor that has this sort of experiece/background.
Thanks
GM

[mystery1]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup...method=boolean

M1

[greymatter]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Thanks M1.I need to digest this as it appears to cover quite a lot.
That'll keep me quiet!
GM

[greymatter]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Sorry CC
I honestly cannot recall signing or having it witnessed,I certainly did not go to the Bank as the Manager came to my office.
The copy I have is not signed or witnessed .Apart from my typed name blocked out(By me) the rest is exactly as you see it.
If the original was signed and witnessed my unsigned unwitnessed copy is all I received.
Apologies for the delay CC.
GM

Looking thro my mail I dont see your PM .CC would you be so kind as to resend this to me as its a bit concerning when emails disappear into the ether!
Many thanks
GM

Hi CC
Any more thoughts on this .
GM

[greymatter]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

It looks like I'm rowing against the tide.Anyway thanks everyone for your help and support in this matter.
GM

[garlok]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Hi GM,

It is not normal practice on this site or its recommendations but as we did, can you afford to scrape togtehre say 10% of the outstanding balance and send in thrid party cheques? I did do a write up on this in the settlemenst section of the site about July time last year. It might be worth the thought using a sol to cover the ground for you. As I said the over riding over arching case law for this is Bracken v Billinghurst in the Court of Appeal which in turn refers to another CoA case, the Temple case and Fletcher Moulton LJ. That should give you enough to put your case to a sol anyway.

regards
Garlok

[greymatter]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Thanks Garlok
Yes I can scrape the monies together and third party cheques is OK.I am going to look up the cases you refer to and consider my next move.
Once again,thank you.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Here:

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/TCC/2003/1333.html

and a piece here:

http://contractsknowledge.com/changi...-moving-target

[CleverClogs (RIP)]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

Any more thoughts on this .

My thoughts on this were that, if the guarantee had not been signed and witnessed, it had not been properly executed.

This leads to the question of whether or not the witness to such a signature may be an employee of the bank to which the guarantee was made, or if the witness needs to be someone quite independent of the transaction.

[greymatter]

Re: Unlimited Guarantee

If so then my copy is totally incomplete .Is this acceptable I wonder?
Thanks CC