I&E requested

[mgfboy]

Re: I&E requested

A creditor could refuse an offer of payment if it was not considered to be reasonable. By not providing I/E or CFS, it makes it easier for them to reject an offer, but once you do they get in a very sticky situation.

These are the following sections they would be in breach of:

Section A6 OFT 664:

We would have particular concerns under circumstances in which a debt recovery business rejects a debtor's repayment offer as being unacceptable – but cannot subsequently demonstrate to our satisfaction why the offer was considered to be unreasonable (for example, if assessed against the Common Financial Statement or equivalent).



Lending Code:

1. SubscribersshouldaccepttheCFS(andothersimilarstate mentssuchasthatusedbytheConsumerCredit Counselling Service (CCCS)). The CFS - or equivalent details of the customer’s income, expenditure and assets - is necessary to enable the subscriber to gather information to assess if an ‘offer to pay’ will enable the customer to be accepted onto a formal debt management plan (DMP), or enable the subscriber to reduce or suppress interest and fees.
2. Ifacustomerworkswithadebt-counsellingorganisationtocompleteaCFS,insupportofa debtmanagementplan, the subscriber should accept the CFS as the basis for pro-rata distribution amongst creditors covered by the plan. Repayment offers based upon expenditure falling within the trigger figures of the CFS should only be challenged by the subscriber if it has reasonable cause to believe that the customer’s income and expenditure figures may be incomplete or inaccurate. This provision is designed to help people in or at risk of being in financial difficulties, and subscribers should use the provision when accounts have gone into default or at an earlier stage if it benefits both them and the customer.

Thats very interesting , when I fell out with HSBC we did put a offer to them and they rejected it out of hand ( the offer included full payments on some of the loans at the original rates as well). Fos didn't even pick up on that perhaps I should put in another complaint

[BBoo]

Re: I&E requested

So disagree all you want, my words remain intact for all to see - never ever send an I&E to a creditor. You do not need to.

The only exception is if it is in YOUR benefit,

That's my views.

It won't surprise you to know I will disagree all I want!

You state above, "The only exception is if it is in YOUR benefit."

Given the OP is wanting an offer of repayment accepted by the OC, in what way is that NOT in his benefit? It is what HE wants to happen, for HIS own benefit.

Generally I am a firm advocate of sending as little as possible to them, as you well know. However, in this case the OP clearly considers it would be in his benefit, you've said there should be an exception if it is in your benefit.

I would suggest, given the above, your original posting was too hasty.

[oscar]

Re: I&E requested

While I can see everybodys point of view here, and it is a well thought out debate, I agree with Niddy.

Personally, I would NEVER send such information to any creditor - just from personal experience from where I worked. Appreciate that things have changed in the last two years, but asking me for I&E would be like asking for blood out of a stone.

I have been asked for I&E while on JSA - whats the point? I HAVE NO INCOME!

Anyway, thats my view.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: I&E requested

We all have different views, if we didn't the world would be a very boring place!

Agreed

I would consider that in many circumstances it is in the debtors benefit to send an I/E as it gives the creditor more rope to hang themselves should the behave unreasonably, and I also consider it gives more leverage to complain to the OFT and FOS should creditors do so.

Ahh see, here's the first mistake - a lender does not need to acknowledge nor do they need to accept ANY formal (or otherwise) DMP, repayment offer or anything short than the monthly repayment so you have no right to complain to anyone. Try it, lets say you sent a DMP (self managed) request to a creditor offering £10 p/m. They refuse and start court action - you go to the ombudsman.

What do you really think they will say?

Trust me, nobody has to accept reduced payments - you have no right to complain to a regulator just because a lender refused any offer and likewise, the lender can actively pursue legal action throughout any dmp.

First, we need to understand the actual law itself then we worry about the intricate delicacies that make the CCA what it is. Unfortunately, you have little DMP rights.

The exception to the rule is usually when you go down financial hardship in which case you need a licenced DMP specialist otherwise no CFS can be produced to use.

As I say, this is one area that I am clued up on and will retort each comeback with facts. The point being, never do I&E unless it is in your interests or a court requests it.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: I&E requested

If you are offering a repayment and they are refusing it, that goes against oft guidelines anyway doesn't it?

No mate, they do not have to accept any proposal.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: I&E requested

Thats very interesting , when I fell out with HSBC we did put a offer to them and they rejected it out of hand ( the offer included full payments on some of the loans at the original rates as well). Fos didn't even pick up on that perhaps I should put in another complaint

Thats because they do not have to accept an offer!

The lender, like anyone else owed money DOES have a right to request a reasonable repayment and the only saving grace is a CFS using financial hardship.

Otherwise I would simply go to all my creditors and offer £1 - why? Cos if they refuse it I will report them.

Its bonkers and this solitary example is why the above act is quoted disproportionately. People need to understand the provisions of the act prior to quoting elements from it.

The CFS is the killer to the lenders, but the saviour to the debtor.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: I&E requested

It won't surprise you to know I will disagree all I want!

But see last few posts, I think I have laid the facts out now.

As the backbone of our forum is not DMP's (but instead only a small part of it) we do not send I&E's and I will not actively encourage it.

I would suggest, given the above, your original posting was too hasty.

????

GC clearly stated "Thanks everyone, i have decided to post another letter for the time being basically saying im not prepared to tell some random person on the phone my personal details and that i wont be putting them in the post either. Basically said that my offer of payment is the all i can afford at present so take it or leave it! See what they send back"

They do not want to send an I&E and I confirmed they do not need to and nor would I suggest they do.

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: I&E requested

Ahh see, here's the first mistake - a lender does not need to acknowledge nor do they need to accept ANY formal (or otherwise) DMP, repayment offer or anything short than the monthly repayment so you have no right to complain to anyone. Try it, lets say you sent a DMP (self managed) request to a creditor offering £10 p/m. They refuse and start court action - you go to the ombudsman.

What do you really think they will say?

Trust me, nobody has to accept reduced payments - you have no right to complain to a regulator just because a lender refused any offer and likewise, the lender can actively pursue legal action throughout any dmp.

I never said at any point that a lender has to accept a reduced payment. If you read my DMP advice I always state the fact that a lender is under no obligation to accept a DMP.

I am not saying you have a right to complain to a regulator, however if a lender is signed up to the lending code, and a debtor has completed a CFS or similar, and the lender rejects that offer then the lender are in breach of the code.

You can then make a formal complaint to the creditor, and if they ignore that complaint you can take it further.

I have made complaints on the above basis against both HBOS and Amex and have had my complaint upheld on both occasions, interest and charges returned, goodwill gesture payments made, and payment proposals accepted so I know how this can be used against creditors!

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: I&E requested

@Globalcrossings

I am sure you can see that there is a difference of opinion on what debtors should do in this situation! I hope this doesn't put you off from posting further, honestly this is not GAC!



While I don't think there is a right/wrong position (just a different position) on sending what I do think is important is that you should not provide ANY information you do not feel comfortable providing.

Best
SnV

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: I&E requested

I have explained above, CFS is not relevant to this thread thus the actual process of CFS is irrelevant however I have also pointed out that a CFS is the killer, ie I agree with the above but that's not what is being portrayed here.

The general consensus here was for the OP to complete I&E which I am saying most definitely don't do. CFS does not come into this.

Anyway, think we all kinda agree on the same points - those points are now on view so thanks, at least it does show a few differing POV's.

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: I&E requested

Anyway, think we all kinda agree on the same points - those points are now on view so thanks, at least it does show a few differing POV's.

We certainly do, which is that most creditors act in a disgusting manner when dealing with creditors.

I think what the thread also demonstrates is that there are some differing angles of defense in these situations, and that a debtor is not without protection either, which for a change is a great thing!

[SaltnVinegar]

Re: I&E requested

The UE route is not something any 'official' organisation would even mention! Last year I read the new guidance for CAB debt advice, in all 40 something pages there wasn't even a mention of SB, forget about UE!

In fact, a CCCS advisor OTR told the OP that he/she could help set up a repayment plan for a debt that was clearly SBd as it "was still payable"

Which when you consider where CCCS get their funding from, and with CAB in bed with Wonga, this should not, unfortunately, be a surprise.

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: I&E requested

Which when you consider where CCCS get their funding from, and with CAB in bed with Wonga, this should not, unfortunately, be a surprise.

Oh you mean like Barclays paying CCCS around £5m per annum, or the fact the 'Big 4' fund MAT (money advice trust) whom do CFS.... It's as though the banks always have the last laugh, well so long as these clowns keep taking their money of course!!

[GlobalC]

Re: I&E requested

@Globalcrossings

I am sure you can see that there is a difference of opinion on what debtors should do in this situation! I hope this doesn't put you off from posting further, honestly this is not GAC!



While I don't think there is a right/wrong position (just a different position) on sending what I do think is important is that you should not provide ANY information you do not feel comfortable providing.

Best
SnV

Far from being put off, i was kinda hoping some light would be shed on the subject, and would like to thank everyone for there imput. I have posted letter off today. Im guessing as long as i keep paying something until they agree to a regular payment the better if it ever went to court?

[Never-In-Doubt]

Re: I&E requested

Im guessing as long as i keep paying something until they agree to a regular payment the better if it ever went to court?

Making some payment always looks better than making no payment, but similarly paying even £1p/m into a debt looks better than sending an I&E offering to pay £1 p/m

Assuming it got to court of course. Remember, doing something and saying you'll do something is two separate issues