Rent arrears

[stuffthebanks]

Cheers TC,
Will do.
Steve

[stuffthebanks]

A very good evening to you all,
My daughter received her SAR back from Southern.
Obviously lots of information spanning 2016 - 2019.
Now i most certainly would never claim to be an expert, but some of the info is not ringing true.
If i may just shorten this post to what i see.
Southern claim she owes £412.99.
The report shows that at the end of the tenancy according to the then housing group Optivo, on 3-6-19 she owed £412.99
This amount is showing on the statement of account shows it to be at £441.96.
Letter to my daughter in her new property from Optivo on 3-7-19 has the following content.
The balance on previous property is in arrears of £412.99,
" I've reviewed your account and confirm your tenancy ended on 2-6-19, however rent was charged for an extra 2 weeks.
Optivo adjusted off £112.99, when it should have been £225.98.
Your closing balance should be £300.
You contacted Optivo on 6-6-19 to pay £300, however there was an issue with the payment system.This payment doesn't appear to have been received.
Please check your bank statement and contact me by 14-7-19, i will require a copy of the statement."

This is from the SAR action notes from Optivo
Tnt handed keys back 3/6/19. Tnt is no longer in the property. Hasnt been all wk. Will be paying up until end of last wk. £441.96. Tnt made payment £300 and will pay the remainder tomorrow There
was an error with taking the payment. Spoke to Karlene who spoke to Income..Systems were down they adv to send call back. Income will call to arrange by 5pm nwd. 7/6/19. VCostello 6/6/19

Paid £141.96 - ref 48

I apologise in advance if i have not explained clearly and tried to make some sense of it all, but it is way past my bedtime and i'm knackered.

It just does not add up to me.

Any help, advice would be most appreciated, and please let me know if you would prefer me to detail in another way.

Many thanks again

Steve

[Still Waving]

First obvious point - You said at the outset that she paid cash when terminating her tenancy. Their note confirms that she paid £300. If it was indeed paid in cash, what happened to it? You said in post #11 that it was £100 that she paid.
Second point - If I have read your notes correctly, she also paid £141.96. These two amounts (£300 and £141.96) add up to the £441.96 you say shows on the statement of account.

Was the £100 you mentioned initially actually the £141.96, and was it this amount where the system error occurred, and the £300 is not in dispute?

Did you read my earlier posts about the likelihood that Optivo would have required a month's rent in advance PLUS a deposit at the start of the tenancy? This is something to look for in the SAR bundle, because if a deposit was paid there should have been a refund at the end of the tenancy, as you had redecorated.

[stuffthebanks]

Good morning SW,
Thanks for the response, much appreciated.
My apologies with my garbled information.
To be honest this was 4 years ago, and not so fresh in the memory.
I need to take another look through the info contained in the SAR, because the more I looked at it last night the less sense it made with regards money paid .money owing.
I see £441.99 less £141.96 leaves £300, which is an amount confirmed in letter from Optivo.
so where do Southern get the £412.99.
This is important detail when you receive a threatening letter stating you have 7 days to make a payment that isn't correct.

Thanks again for your invaluable advice.

Steve

[stuffthebanks]

Hi,
quick response to SW,
The £300 was a telephone payment, they came bach a day later to say they had a problem with their system and it appears payment didn't go through.
Not sure we have a case to argue on that.

[Roger]

Hi,
quick response to SW,
The £300 was a telephone payment, they came bach a day later to say they had a problem with their system and it appears payment didn't go through.
Not sure we have a case to argue on that.

Well if it was a telephone payment was £300.00 taken from the Bank?
Their System MIGHT be their internal ACCOUNTS SYSTEM which doesn't mean they didn't get the money!

[stuffthebanks]

Hi Roger It's a long time ago, my daughter isn't completely certain the money came out, she would have to go back and ask her bank for statements from 4 years ago.

[Roger]

Hi Roger It's a long time ago, my daughter isn't completely certain the money came out, she would have to go back and ask her bank for statements from 4 years ago.

They have to hold the records for up to six years. She might even be able to do this on line because it was done at the Phone!
Of course its important because the bank will hold a record of the Transaction time date and the recipient Bank!
If for nothing else your peace of mind!
Always ready to help AAD , they helped me! didn't judge me on my unpaid debts just really helped!

[Still Waving]

Hi Roger It's a long time ago, my daughter isn't completely certain the money came out, she would have to go back and ask her bank for statements from 4 years ago.

I thought she was going to do this anyway. She really needs to be proactive on this.

[stuffthebanks]

Cheers guys My daughter single parent 2 kids, I help where I can, but age catching me up and not able to focus ? like I used too.
As of today, she is in the process, belatedly, of sorting info out from the bank
If it transpires that the payment did not go through, she will obviously have to make very small affordable payments on the amount that might not have gone through her bank ( £300)
???I,m going to look through the SAR in more detail this afternoon to work out why Southern are asking for £412.99 with statement from Optivo is quoting from 2019 a balance of £300.
Thanks again for your help and patience.

Steve

[stuffthebanks]

So, the original housing association was with Viridian.
Forgetting the £300 payment that needs to be confirmed by Daughters bank whether it went through or not to Optivo.
I have looked again at the SAR info and have this update.
As already mentioned in earlier posts, a deposit should have been made at the start of tenancy.
All future rental payments would be paid in advance each month.

29-7-2016 - Offer of tenancy with Viridian
"It is confirmed on the pre tenancy offer and conditions attached, various forms of proof of identification requested, if application is successful, you are required to pay a cash deposit on the day of sign up."
8-8-2016 - Combined post tenancy visit & starter tenancy visit.
On the starter visit tick box paperwork it has start date as 8-9-2016, under rent account it shows rent account , account balance on statement, £336 credit.
Keys were exchanged on this date.

We are 100% certain that on the starter visit we paid the housing officer the cash deposit as per agreement.
I assume this is the handwritten amount shown on the account balance statement £336.
There is nothing showing this payment in the SAR.

So regardless of the disputed payment of £300 which my daughter is working on gathering this info from her bank, should we at this point go back to Southern and ask why this information is missing.
In addition adding why they are requesting £412.99, when the account balance from Optico is asking for £300.
???????I am conscious that no reply back to Southern may prompt them into recovery action.
Or am i jumping the gun.

Hope that makes some sense, more than happy to take on any feedback positive or negative.

Cheers as always.
Steve

[Still Waving]

Steve

OK, so this is something of a can of worms. Optivo was formed in 2017 by a merger of Amicus Horizon with Viridian Housing. Optivo merged with Southern Housing a few months ago. So there is a three-link accounting chain here - Viridian/Optivo/Southern Housing. What could possibly go wrong? As mentioned early in this thread, it's very odd that this 'discrepancy' should only be discovered now. I think that SH need to be able to prove the accuracy of their accounts position throughout the mergers. You have already identified some anomalies.

I'm not clear about this entry of 29/7/2016. It says a deposit must be paid, but is this definitely in addition to the first month's rent? You say you assume that the £336 credit balance on the account was the deposit you paid, but this something you need to try to get clear.

As I posted previously, Southern Housing's practice is that - "You will need to pay a deposit equal to one month's rent and pay one month's rent in advance of signing your tenancy agreement." This is fairly standard, and I also found that Optivo also require a deposit, so it seems likely that Viridian would have too.

I'm also a bit confused by the dates - 8/8/2016 and 8/9/2016. Is this a typo on your part, or an error on their part, or was the start date actually a month to the day, after the Starter Tenancy Visit?

Sorry for all the questions, and I appreciate that your head must be spinning, but you obviously have much more information than you can possibly post here. Just trying to help achieve clarity.

[stuffthebanks]

Cheers SW,
appreciate the input mate.
It's as confusing to me as it must be for you guys.
The tenancy agreement shows tenancy start date as 8-8-16.
The paperwork from the starter tenancy visit on 8-8-16 shows tenancy start date as 8-9-16.
Rent agreement shows rent paid weekly in advance.
Rent shows on accounts as due to start on 8-8-16.
So from that I can only assume one month's rent had been paid in advance.
I think I need to go back to Southern with a list of questions they need to answer.
Far too many discrepancies as you point out.
They need to clear up why our cash deposit/ rent advance payment does not show on any accounts provided.

Cheers again for the help mate.
Steve

[stuffthebanks]

Morning all
quick update and any advice welcome on next steps.
We wrote to Southern who are requesting unpaid rent from 2019.
Email sent on 1-3-23 to ask why they were demanding £412.99 when the information in the SAR clearly shows the amount should be £300.
And why no record of deposit paid, which we remember was in cash and one month in advance on the day keys were handed to start tenancy ..

Reply received on 11-3-23 from Southern.
They have amended the amount from £412.99 to £300, no apology for the error they made.
??????
They have no record of deposit being made at start of tenancy and will carry out further checks.
They want my daughter to arrange payment plan for the £300.

I want to send a real snotty letter in response but have learned from years on this site there is always the right way to hit back.

Maybe a short response highlighting glaring errors made so far there end, and the deposit made would amount to more than the £300 disputed rent arrears, and that they actually owe money from deposit amount which was around £430.
Nothing on our records or from the SAR show payment made or received.

Any thoughts ?

Thanks as always
Steve

[Still Waving]

Hi steve

I think I would be inclined to push the line that their accounts are flawed and incorrect, and that surely your daughter would not have been given the keys to the property if she had not paid the deposit. They have already been in error on the amount allegedly owed (£412.99), and they have apparently failed to correctly account for the deposit paid.

Did you also challenge them as to why it has taken until now for this issue to arise? That in itself indicates a lack of proper accounting and control, both at the time of her tenancy and through the intervening period when there were changes in the ownership of the business.

Cast as much doubt as possible on the accuracy of their position and, as you say, push that in fact your daughter is owed monies from them.

Good luck.