Flipping heck !!

[cardiac arrest]

Ok, so now I have received a reply from Brent BC to my FOI request. The cameras and signs have not had a planning application approval. They have no record of any application.

good news, so far. However they haven't answered the second part of my question which was, would a planning approval be required.

There's a chance it might be exempted so I need them to confirm this. They might be a bit shy coming forward with this but I've reminded them this was part of my FOI

hope to get an answer later this week, and that it will confirm the signs and cameras are illegal

[Still Waving]

Hi

You've obviously been researching this pretty well, so you have probably already come across a lot of this stuff -

This Google search show a number of sites discussing this issue http://preview.tinyurl.com/y7668bmj


On the first site listed I saw a couple of links in one discussion which provide further reading which may or may not be helpful -

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...499/326679.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/advertis...ts-for-consent
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0070783_en.pdf

[cardiac arrest]

3 weeks later and Brent BC are dragging their heels. The foi query came back with no planning could be found, but they couldn't advise on whether needed - I had to ask a separate planning complaints dept. I did this via email and simply got a reply with link to search their database (which I said I'd already done). I wrote back more explicitly last week and am waiting the 10 days they said they would need to reply. LCP have 5 london car parks,and the one at Harlesden (which is a separate company) makes a good profit...don't know the turnover but at £8 for 4 hours it will be significant. I'll wait for the 10 days to expire and ask Brent BC again. I'm wary of being accused of sending persistent emails (I read a case about this), but if they don't respond it will have to be an official complaint ...I expect they would have to send a guy down to have a look and then write a report ...maybe they'll form a committee..you know what councils are like..

[Still Waving]

If you get the better of LCP on this, it's a pity you won't be able to charge somebody for your time at a goodly rate per hour.

[cardiac arrest]

If you get the better of LCP on this, it's a pity you won't be able to charge somebody for your time at a goodly rate per hour.

If it gets to the stage where LCP look like they have to refund 'customers', I might let them make me an offer to keep it hush hush

[cardiac arrest]

Got home yesterday to find a letter from debt collectors ZZPS , demanding the the full £100 plus £60 'admin' costs ! They seem to forget
I've already paid £50 (which was accepted), and that the LCP payment site still says "payment already completed for this PCN".

I will of course ignore.

[Still Waving]

The next step will likely be a letter purporting to come from Wright Hassall, solicitors.

https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ar...Wright-Hassall

[cardiac arrest]

The next step will likely be a letter purporting to come from Wright Hassall, solicitors.

https://bmpa.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ar...Wright-Hassall

This could go all the way, if they want - my file is building up nicely and I quite fancy a day in court, as a poor downtrodden pensioner...bullied and harassed by aggressive car parking company, debt collectors and legal people..all for 4 minutes over-parking.-£160 ! (so far)

[cardiac arrest]

Finally received a reply from Brent BC - They say that no planning application has ever been received for the signs or the ANPR cameras but they have no powers to force them to apply. They add that they have not yet formed a view as to whether enforcement action should be taken should no planning application be submitted....! This sounds to me like they're not going to do anything about it, it'll be over 4 years which I think is the cut off date for enforcement ? I'm not very knowledgeable about planning rules tbh, but to me it seems no one bothered to follow through when the original planning applications were submitted for the car park back in 1997, although several supplementary application were required regarding construction and access..the signs were seemingly missed, and I expect the ANPR cameras were also erected without seeking approval. As time has gone by LCP seem exempt now from enforcement. My case about these being 'illegal' seems to have floundered unless I can argue a breach of my human rights in some way..if this goes to court I expect the judge will just say it's up to the council and not the court to enforce planning and that the contract is therefor valid, by default ?

[charitynjw]

Hi cardiac arrest.

You do not have to accept POPLA's decision (But the parking co would have had to if it had gone your way.)

Did you ID who was actually driving during the parking incident, either in your appeal(s) or in any communication with the parking co?

Out of some 6,500 tickets issued so far this year, LPC have only 'done' court 6 times.
http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/LCP_P..._Services.html

[charitynjw]

LCP, so BPA member.

From BPA Code of Practice
"13 Grace periods
13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/writ...update_V6..pdf

[cardiac arrest]

LCP, so BPA member.

From BPA Code of Practice
"13 Grace periods
13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/writ...update_V6..pdf

I hadn't known that previously but my stay was 16 minutes, and I didn't pay..so I was 5 minutes over time. There was no one there as it was an unmanned car park,and non of the signs indicated there was a grace period. However I have looked into the advertising consent for the large signs there, and the council while admitting no application was ever submitted didn't say that this is a statutory requirement to obtain approval. I have looked at the official Govt guidelines and the signs are officially illegal, regardless of any inaction by the council. The signs do not become illegal only when the council takes enforcement action. The conclusion I have come to is that LCP failed to apply for advertising consent for their signage, and they relied entirely on that signage to support their case that a contract was formed with the driver. However if the signs were illegal by statute, in contract, then no contract can be made where an illegal act has taken place. The fundamental being contracts cannot be enforced and gain made where there has been an illegal act.by one of the parties to the contract. There is some case law surrounding this and I need to read up on this, but case law or common law cannot override statute.

[charitynjw]

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...499/326679.pdf

Unfortunately, courts seem to turn a blind eye to arguments concerning planning permission.

I'm guessing this was ANPR capture?

[cardiac arrest]

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...499/326679.pdf

Unfortunately, courts seem to turn a blind eye to arguments concerning planning permission.

I'm guessing this was ANPR capture?

yes it was... As far as courts are concerned, I need to find some case history to support me.

[charitynjw]

Obviously, without sight of your written communications it is difficult to give an opinion.
You wouldn't want to state anything in (potential) court proceedings which could amount to perjury.

In these private parking cases, one golden rule is never to ID the driver, even by implication..you lose potential technical defences available via Schedule 4, Protection of Freedoms Act 2012.

However, some points to note.
ANPR cannot pinpoint a period of parking, it can only record entry & exit.
The driver is allowed a 'reasonable' grace period to enter the car park, find a space, read & digest the terms & conditions of parking.
The driver is allowed a min of 10 mins to exit the car park.
If disabled, reasonable adjustments should be granted. (Equality Act 2012).

Most court cases are dealt with at county court level & are not precedent, though can be persuasive.
I'll see if I can dig out some suitable ones.....***see next post***...ignore the link in this one.