Selling rented property

[PlanB]

Re: Selling rented property

around January this year the tenant was getting close to being 2 months in arrears so I questioned what was going on, they said they had lost their job but were hopeful that another job was around the corner. Since then they have been paying weekly rather than monthly although the weekly amounts vary and don't quite pay enough to cover that months rent let alone the arrears.

I'm glad I asked that question. If she's lost her job she's probably claiming Housing Benefit which is paid every two weeks in arrears but nothing towards previous rent arrears. That could explain why her rent payments are random. If she is currently 8 weeks or more in arrears you can apply to your local council to get the HB paid direct to you as Landlord. That way you'll have the security of payment while you seek possession and evict her which can take 3 - 5 months if she resists.

If she is on HB then the minute you serve that Section 21 Notice she will probably go to Housing Options for advice. They will tell her to sit tight until she's evicted.

If she's on HB then your "goodwill gesture" may not work because if you waive her outstanding rent and she's received HB for any of that period she would either have to pay it back to the Council or risk being accused of benefit fraud (receiving money she's not entitled to because you haven't 'demanded' it). She could argue that the rent arrears were before she signed-on but none of us know if that's true or not until she tells you.

I know I'm sounding all doom and gloom but I think it's best that you're given all the facts and possible scenarios so you can make an informed decision what to do.

I don't know the woman so I can't tell you how to handle this. But if I were in your shoes I would go with a charm offensive because she's going to be on the defensive if you hit her with a Section 21. If I were in your shoes I would make a gentle phone call (next week) to say that you've decided to sell the flat for personal reasons and want to work out the best way to make sure that she has a smooth transition to her next place. I would say that she'll be getting a Section 21 Notice of Possession in a few days time, but not to take it personally. Tell her you have to do that as a professional Landlord but you're willing to be flexible over the outdate to suit her. That way you're working with her not against her.

If the conversation opens up then try to find a way to establish whether she's on Housing Benefit without making her feel patronised. What you have to keep in mind is that she holds all the cards at the moment.

[GlobalC]

Re: Selling rented property

Next you need to think about why you want to get rid of your Tenant? Is it because of the rent arrears or is it because you want to tart up the flat before selling?

The main reason why i have to sell is because of my financial affairs, basically i am worried that someone ( debt collector ) will get a CO on the properties and then everyone loses out. I am planning on leaving the country next year for a period of time and don't want to have to worry about these flats.

If it's the rent arrears can you tell me why you think she's got into arrears all of a sudden after years of paying on time? Has there been a job loss and can she claim HB? It is possible to sell a property with a Tenant in situ. In fact it's a dream come true for an investor to have a ready-made Tenant (they won't know she doesn't pay her rent on time . . . ) which could be an advantage

The tenant got into rent arrears around October last year, at first she just said sorry and that she would pay it off, around January this year the tenant was getting close to being 2 months in arrears so I questioned what was going on, they said they had lost their job but were hopeful that another job was around the corner. Since then they have been paying weekly rather than monthly although the weekly amounts vary and don't quite pay enough to cover that months rent let alone the arrears.

I had the flats valued and the value to sell them as with them in situ was a lot worse than selling on the open market, it is possible that my business partner who unofficially owns one of the flats could buy them from me although he hasn't said yay or nay just to get them valued and get rid of the tenant in arrears.

[PlanB]

Re: Selling rented property

I have today posted off ( recorded ) the deposit paperwork with an accompanying letter asking them to sign and return in the stamped envelope supplied

Let the dust settle on that before you make your next move. If your Tenants are going to react over your delayed action to place their deposits in a scheme then they'll probably do it straight away.

Next you need to think about why you want to get rid of your Tenant? Is it because of the rent arrears or is it because you want to tart up the flat before selling?

If it's the rent arrears can you tell me why you think she's got into arrears all of a sudden after years of paying on time? Has there been a job loss and can she claim HB? It is possible to sell a property with a Tenant in situ. In fact it's a dream come true for an investor to have a ready-made Tenant (they won't know she doesn't pay her rent on time . . . ) which could be an advantage.

[GlobalC]

Re: Selling rented property

Morning, So I have today posted off ( recorded ) the deposit paperwork with an accompanying letter asking them to sign and return in the stamped envelope supplied. Finally getting there!!

[PlanB]

Re: Selling rented property

Sorry if it seems I'm a bit slow at sorting this since the thread started but I spend a lot of time away from home and just haven't had the time to deal with it!

Okay now I'm feeling guilty for criticizing your 'time management skills'

The thing is I was trained to presume the worst case scenario (court) and work backwards from that.

I'm a Landlord and I'm now having to pay £11k to the solicitors of a lowlife tenant of mine who trashed my property, didn't pay rent and was sexually inappropriate towards my daughter (don't' ask).

My point is you need to guard yourself against attack from your tenant who can and maybe will take legal advice.

You cannot put the clock back to the fact that you didn't insure the deposit(s) when you should have done. You're looking at a damage limitation exercise here.

Pitching up at your Tenant's *home* uninvited to ask them to move out is the worst thing you could possibly do.

We'll chat about this over the next few days once you have formally served them (both of your tenants) with the legal paperwork which you should have served them four(?) years ago.

[GlobalC]

Re: Selling rented property

Phew! So I will post the deposits off tomorrow by recorded delivery. How long do you think i should wait before making my next move? I sense that my next move is to issue the section 21 and not get involved with speaking personally to try and sweeten the move! Bear in mind that the good tenant is aware that I may sell the flats as she wanted to buy carpets so i had to tell her to hang fire, she may well have spoken with the other tenant.

Sorry if it seems I'm a bit slow at sorting this since the thread started but I spend a lot of time away from home and just haven't had the time to deal with it!

[PlanB]

Re: Selling rented property

Maybe I should post the docs off first thing tomorrow and wait till next week before go and visit ( I had assumed giving them in person would be ok ). I haven't told her I was coming tonight so maybe it's best to hang fire then. I had thought about just doing the informal approach to gauge her reaction and then follow it up with the section 21 a few days later. I don't want to come across badly so they dig their heels in if that makes sense.

The docs require signatures from land lord and tenant I assume we both need a copy so should I put an accompanying letter to ask that she sends it back to me ( Mydeposits scheme )

I'm glad you've told me that. If you hadn't told your Tenant you were coming to visit them then I would say you have a hell's chance of getting any agreement in place. How would you feel if someone turned up on your doorstep out-of-the-blue and asked you to give up your home in eight weeks' time because of rent arrears? If it was me I'd accuse you of harassment, and if I was in a really distressed state I would report you to the police for harassment. She could use this against you in court. Harassment is a criminal offence.

Personally I think going to see her is a big mistake. Do everything by the book. Send her the deposit documents signed by you as Landlord. Yes the Tenant does have to countersign them so enclose a SAE to make it easy for them. Then send the Tenant a copy of the final document. Most Tenants/Landlords don't bother with all that signing stuff because the deposit is placed in a scheme within 30 days of taking it to comply with scheme rules and everyone is happy. You've breached the rules so you are at risk of a court coming down on you like a ton of bricks.

If you go round uninvited you are storing up trouble for yourself. Glad I caught you before it was too late

[GlobalC]

Re: Selling rented property

Hi Plan B,

I didnt email the docs because I don't have their emails. Maybe I should post the docs off first thing tomorrow and wait till next week before go and visit ( I had assumed giving them in person would be ok ). I haven't told her I was coming tonight so maybe it's best to hang fire then. I had thought about just doing the informal approach to gauge her reaction and then follow it up with the section 21 a few days later. I don't want to come across badly so they dig their heels in if that makes sense.

The docs require signatures from land lord and tenant I assume we both need a copy so should I put an accompanying letter to ask that she sends it back to me ( Mydeposits scheme )

[PlanB]

Re: Selling rented property

Im going to see the tenant tonight and ask that she leaves in 2 months time I am going to take a letter which will include a gesture of goodwill to waive the arrears and ask her to sign it. Should I also issue a section 21 and if so is there one for shorthold tenancies that are now on periodic? I was thinking trying the informal approach first and see what reaction i get. I am also going to supply the deposit docs as well.

This is about tactics. Does your Tenant know you're coming to see her tonight and why? It's most unusual for a Landlord to make a house call without saying why.

I suggested you should email (or post) the Mydeposits insurance details to her on 11th April (last Friday). I don't know why you didn't because now you don't have tangible evidence of serving them on your Tenant.

I don't know your tenant so I can't predict how she will react to your "gesture of goodwill" particularly if she wants to stay in her home and may not want your "goodwill". There's no letter you can write that would override her legal rights if she wants to dig her heels in or takes legal advice. It could look like a bribe to cover your breach of the the law.

Serving the insurance documents by hand at the same time asking her nicely to *get out* could look a bit naughty if she subsequently tells a judge she felt pressured into signing your letter waiving her legal rights. Won't she wonder why you've not served the insurance documents four years ago? Won't she ask you questions about that since you'll be sitting down together? What will you tell her, that you've only insured the deposit so you can evict her? If you had sent them by email/post then she couldn't have asked you anything can she? She'll have got the documents and job done.

I suppose going round to chat to her is fine albeit not something I would ever do. It's messy for a start. Still if you get on well with her you should make your offer to waive her rent arrears in principle if she agrees to move out. Then follow it up with a letter in the post which should be signed by both of you and witnessed by an independent person. An ethical Landlord would advise her to take independent legal advice so you can't be accused of anything untoward. You're asking her to waive her legal rights.

If you sense she's reluctant to move out when you meet tonight (despite any gesture of goodwill), then you'll have no option but to serve that Section 21 Notice and hope she doesn't go and get legal advice. I can see from the beginning of your thread that I advised you to place those deposits in a scheme on 8th March. I don't know why you didn't do that but to serve her with the deposit documents only 24 hours before you issue the Notice of Possession (that's what a Section 21 Notice is) is going to look very bad in court. Let's hope it doesn't get to court and she is happy to leave of her own accord after you sweet talk her tonight.

[GlobalC]

Re: Selling rented property

Hiya Plan B, sorry to trouble you again! Im going to see the tenant tonight and ask that she leaves in 2 months time I am going to take a letter which will include a gesture of goodwill to waive the arrears and ask her to sign it. Should I also issue a section 21 and if so is there one for shorthold tenancies that are now on periodic? I was thinking trying the informal approach first and see what reaction i get. I am also going to supply the deposit docs as well. Many thanks GC

[PlanB]

Re: Selling rented property

I have now protected the deposits via mydeposit !

Hallelujah

I assume i just need to hand them copies of everything

You should be able to download a PDF of the insurance certificate and one on the Tenants Rights (whatever it's called). Under the circumstances I would simply email those to your tenants without explanation. You have a duty to provide them with the Prescribed Information (those PDFs) and you'll have discharged your duty once you have done that. If they don't have email then send in the post and get a Proof of Posting (that's free) from the Post Office.

Obviously you won't be telling them you've only done it so you can lawfully get rid of them

[GlobalC]

Re: Selling rented property

Morning, I have now protected the deposits via mydeposit ! I assume i just need to hand them copies of everything

[GlobalC]

Re: Selling rented property

Does this mean you have a found a buyer? I thought you wanted to leave one in situ while you get rid of the one who has rent arrears so you can tart up that flat before selling.

You are correct, Deal with the bad tenant first get them out and sell that one first. Although I did have to explain to the good tenant that I may sell as she wanted to buy new carpets!

[PlanB]

Re: Selling rented property

I intend to try the nice approach first and see if I can get them to go on there on accord.

Does this mean you have a found a buyer? I thought you wanted to leave one in situ while you get rid of the one who has rent arrears so you can tart up that flat before selling.

[GlobalC]

Re: Selling rented property

Ok will do that thanks Plan B, Once this is done I intend to try the nice approach first and see if I can get them to go on there on accord. If they agree I will get them to sign something saying so. If not then a section 21 will be the next step